Author Topic: The Stat Geek Thread  (Read 2825 times)

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Offline Lintyfresh85

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2009, 01:24:29 am »
I appreciate the distinction, and that makes sense in view of the rules.

However, this inserts the scorer's opinion into the mix, which defeats the purpose of the stat. If a grounder is considered intentional and ruled a sacrifice, is really that different than just making contact to advance runners and then hauling ass to 1st?

No. There's no such thing as a sac hit. There are only sac flies and sac bunts.

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2009, 03:47:27 am »
Since there's a truck outside making an incredible racket - I was thinking and realized that FIP is normalized so that is comparable in scale to ERA. Pretty clever actually and explains all the odd multiplication.

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2009, 08:24:51 am »
how slow is the runner that the bunt can be thrown into center and then to first before he reaches?

More half-assed lazy than slow. 


In MLB, in September, the Marlins went through a rash of about 3 or 4 guys being thrown out at 1B from the OF, and a couple more forced out at 2B on ground balls to CF to take away what should have been hits from batters.  Fredi had them hustling.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2009, 09:23:29 am »

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2009, 09:53:45 am »
Forget FOP, I'm a VORP man.

unless I can see the formula-  don't really know how much I can trust a stat

Offline The Chief

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2009, 10:03:42 am »
I like to draw my own conclusions based on a broad range of data and personal observations.





;)

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2009, 10:33:36 am »
I appreciate the distinction, and that makes sense in view of the rules.

However, this inserts the scorer's opinion into the mix, which defeats the purpose of the stat. If a grounder is considered intentional and ruled a sacrifice, is really that different than just making contact to advance runners and then hauling ass to 1st?

It may be considered by some a bit of semantics, but there is a great deal of difference between "opinion" and "judgment."  The scorer uses judgment, and if his judgment hasn't largely been very widely upheld, he won't be, or at least should not be, a scorer very long.  There are some bad ones, such as in Atlanta#, that play favorites and skew the stats - the scorer's first loyalty is supposed to be to the league and integrity of the game so that stats from game to game, team to team, year to year are comparable.  Though provided by the home team, he is a representative of the league, not a team, and should not show any bias. 

The only time judgment is used in these situations is whether or not the batter was bunting for a hit or bunting for a sac.  The situation (score, inning, number of outs), reactions of the runners, and batter history, etc. all come into consideration.  If there is any doubt, it is considered to be an attempt to sac.  Even if you have a guy like the 2003 vintage of Juan Pierre, who often bunted for hits, if put into a sac bunt situation, if the bunt does not result in a hit, it is to be considered a sac as the primary intent was to move the runner and give up an out. 

Every full swing, check swing, or ball that hits the bat without intent on the batter (batter ducking away from an inside pitch and the pitch hits the bat) that results in a fair ball is considered an attempt for a hit.



# In violation of the rules, the Braves apparently have an open phone line from the dugout to the scorer.  The scorer is supposed to have a position in the booth directly behind the plate so that all scorers have essentially the same view of the game, and no member of the press nor anyone affiliated with either team is permitted to contact the scorer during the game so as there are no outside influences in judgment.  No member of the media or any team affiliate is allowed to speak to the scorer during the game.  The scorer is only allowed to communicate with the press via hand signals or the PA system. There have been some incidents reported of Smoltz and Chipper calling the scorer during a Braves home game, and the weenie scorer provided by the Braves lets the Braves players and managers make the calls.


In the NCAA, the rules are slightly relaxed in that while there must be closed door between the media and the scorer, the scorer can open the door and announce a judgment that cannot reflected on a scoreboard or hand signals, is not a generally used for a PA announcement, and if the media booth does not have access to online gameday update (media is responsible for bringing its own computer) to communicate rulings such as a single with advance to 2B being considered a FC.  Sac bunt vs bunting for a hit are generally so obvious that there is no reason to communicate.  It is surprising how many members of the media, and even visiting sports information directors do not know the basic rules, such as PB and WP are not errors, that a C throw on a steal attempt that does not result in further advancement cannot ever be ruled and E, that if such a throw is good but not field properly or the 2B goes Uggla and fails to tag the runner, or even fails to cover the bag at all, that it is a CS/E-4.  We had another on during an exhibition in October when after 2 outs, the 1B rolled the ball to the mound and left the field, permitting a run to score.  E-3.  There are still a lot of people that falsely believe a fielder must touch a ball to be charged a fielding error.  The one that bugs me though is the high pop that 2 or three guys wait under, and then let it drop between them.  That should be an E, but in order to keep stats comparable, which is the primary objective, it usually is given as a H because that is the way is inexplicably has been judged for decades. 

There is one situation where due to not having camera views much better than my own perspective that I do seek outside help, and that is on some WP vs PB where due to views blocked by the catcher and ump that from the press box I cannot see if a pitch was in the dirt, and their being too much noise that it prevents hearing anything.  In that case, I'll have separate runners go to each dugout and ask if the pitch was in the dirt.  I only had to do that twice last year, and fortunately both benches agreed both times.  I have camera aimed at the plate from the sidelines this year, which I can use to make those calls without technically breaking the rules.





In 2006, Maddux had a play in FL changed 2.5 months later so that a hit was ruled an error to improve his ERA.  The play in question was a 2-out sharp grounder to SS, who went to his right to field the ball a few feet in the outfield grass, and then made a hurried off-balance one-hop throw to 1b that was cleanly fielded.  However, Hanley beat the throw by about 2 steps.  The Fish scored 5 runs after the play.  The change was lobbied months 2.5 months after the play although the original ruling was beyond any question correct, and any request for changes must be made within 24 hours after a game is completed.  Selig had the NL change the ruling to benefit Maddux.  It was complete BS, and resulted in Maddux ERA at the time dropping by 0.39 to get away from the about 5.00 he had at the time.

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2009, 10:37:08 am »
It may be considered by some a bit of semantics, but there is a great deal of difference between "opinion" and "judgment."  The scorer uses judgment, and if his judgment hasn't largely been very widely upheld, he won't be, or at least should not be, a scorer very long.  There are some bad ones, such as in Atlanta#, that play favorites and skew the stats - the scorer's first loyalty is supposed to be to the league and integrity of the game so that stats from game to game, team to team, year to year are comparable.  Though provided by the home team, he is a representative of the league, not a team, and should not show any bias. 

The only time judgment is used in these situations is whether or not the batter was bunting for a hit or bunting for a sac.  The situation (score, inning, number of outs), reactions of the runners, and batter history, etc. all come into consideration.  If there is any doubt, it is considered to be an attempt to sac.  Even if you have a guy like the 2003 vintage of Juan Pierre, who often bunted for hits, if put into a sac bunt situation, if the bunt does not result in a hit, it is to be considered a sac as the primary intent was to move the runner and give up an out. 

Every full swing, check swing, or ball that hits the bat without intent on the batter (batter ducking away from an inside pitch and the pitch hits the bat) that results in a fair ball is considered an attempt for a hit.



# In violation of the rules, the Braves apparently have an open phone line from the dugout to the scorer.  The scorer is supposed to have a position in the booth directly behind the plate so that all scorers have essentially the same view of the game, and no member of the press nor anyone affiliated with either team is permitted to contact the scorer during the game so as there are no outside influences in judgment.  No member of the media or any team affiliate is allowed to speak to the scorer during the game.  The scorer is only allowed to communicate with the press via hand signals or the PA system. There have been some incidents reported of Smoltz and Chipper calling the scorer during a Braves home game, and the weenie scorer provided by the Braves lets the Braves players and managers make the calls.


In the NCAA, the rules are slightly relaxed in that while there must be closed door between the media and the scorer, the scorer can open the door and announce a judgment that cannot reflected on a scoreboard or hand signals, is not a generally used for a PA announcement, and if the media booth does not have access to online gameday update (media is responsible for bringing its own computer) to communicate rulings such as a single with advance to 2B being considered a FC.  Sac bunt vs bunting for a hit are generally so obvious that there is no reason to communicate.  It is surprising how many members of the media, and even visiting sports information directors do not know the basic rules, such as PB and WP are not errors, that a C throw on a steal attempt that does not result in further advancement cannot ever be ruled and E, that if such a throw is good but not field properly or the 2B goes Uggla and fails to tag the runner, or even fails to cover the bag at all, that it is a CS/E-4.  We had another on during an exhibition in October when after 2 outs, the 1B rolled the ball to the mound and left the field, permitting a run to score.  E-3.  There are still a lot of people that falsely believe a fielder must touch a ball to be charged a fielding error.  The one that bugs me though is the high pop that 2 or three guys wait under, and then let it drop between them.  That should be an E, but in order to keep stats comparable, which is the primary objective, it usually is given as a H because that is the way is inexplicably has been judged for decades. 

There is one situation where due to not having camera views much better than my own perspective that I do seek outside help, and that is on some WP vs PB where due to views blocked by the catcher and ump that from the press box I cannot see if a pitch was in the dirt, and their being too much noise that it prevents hearing anything.  In that case, I'll have separate runners go to each dugout and ask if the pitch was in the dirt.  I only had to do that twice last year, and fortunately both benches agreed both times.  I have camera aimed at the plate from the sidelines this year, which I can use to make those calls without technically breaking the rules.





In 2006, Maddux had a play in FL changed 2.5 months later so that a hit was ruled an error to improve his ERA.  The play in question was a 2-out sharp grounder to SS, who went to his right to field the ball a few feet in the outfield grass, and then made a hurried off-balance one-hop throw to 1b that was cleanly fielded.  However, Hanley beat the throw by about 2 steps.  The Fish scored 5 runs after the play.  The change was lobbied months 2.5 months after the play although the original ruling was beyond any question correct, and any request for changes must be made within 24 hours after a game is completed.  Selig had the NL change the ruling to benefit Maddux.  It was complete BS, and resulted in Maddux ERA at the time dropping by 0.39 to get away from the about 5.00 he had at the time.

Thanks for the detailed response, I'll read it at lunch :)

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2009, 11:22:49 am »
Thanks for the detailed response, I'll read it at lunch :)

Yeah, kinda long. And went a bit off on stats need to be comparable.  Sorry.

[ot]PSU, like many/most northern NCAA teams, cut way back on its trip to Florida in Feb & March.  They are only down for 3 games in the Tampa area vs 7 here last year.  They are calling the series the Big East/Big Ten Challenge, and I was asked to be a scorer.  Since FAU is at Auburn that weekend, I accepted, and will be doing 12 of the games (4 a day for 3 days).  Hopefully I'll get to see a PSU game.  I am also doing most of the Lynn University games (they are the reigning Div II Champs).  I should see somewhere around 90 NCAA games this year, and another 20 or so for USA Baseball.[/ot]

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2009, 11:31:53 am »
Yeah, kinda long. And went a bit off on stats need to be comparable.  Sorry.

[ot]PSU, like many/most northern NCAA teams, cut way back on its trip to Florida in Feb & March.  They are only down for 3 games in the Tampa area vs 7 here last year.  They are calling the series the Big East/Big Ten Challenge, and I was asked to be a scorer.  Since FAU is at Auburn that weekend, I accepted, and will be doing 12 of the games (4 a day for 3 days).  Hopefully I'll get to see a PSU game.  I am also doing most of the Lynn University games (they are the reigning Div II Champs).  I should see somewhere around 90 NCAA games this year, and another 20 or so for USA Baseball.[/ot]

I said long, not boring. No sweat.

There's zero chance  I'll catch a PSU game, let alone one with lovely weather, so have fun. I imagine since the sparkling new stadium opened a couple of years ago that recruiting has improved.

Offline tomterp

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2009, 12:27:16 pm »
Forget FOP, I'm a VORP man.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Thank you Minty, it was an obscure reference but if anybody would get it, it would be you.

Offline The Chief

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2009, 12:28:09 pm »
Thank you Minty, it was an obscure reference but if anybody would get it, it would be you.

I want to be part of the super secret club! :(

Offline tomterp

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2009, 12:34:00 pm »
I want to be part of the super secret club! :(

From "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou"

Quote
Pomade Vendor: I can get the part from Bristol. It'll take two weeks, here's your pomade.
Ulysses Everett McGill: Two weeks? That don't do me no good.
Pomade Vendor: Nearest Ford auto man's Bristol.
Ulysses Everett McGill: Hold on, I don't want this pomade. I want Dapper Dan.
Pomade Vendor: I don't carry Dapper Dan, I carry Fop.
Ulysses Everett McGill: Well, I don't want Fop, goddamn it! I'm a Dapper Dan man!
Pomade Vendor: Watch your language, young feller, this is a public market. Now if you want Dapper Dan, I can order it for you, have it in a couple of weeks.
Ulysses Everett McGill: Well, ain't this place a geographical oddity. Two weeks from everywhere!
Ulysses Everett McGill: I don't want FOP Damn it, I'm a Dapper Dan Man!
Ulysses Everett McGill: Well, it didn't look like a two-horse town, but try finding a decent hair jelly.

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2009, 12:36:41 pm »
I hope someday to awake suddenly and exclaim "Mah hair!"

Offline The Chief

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2009, 12:37:09 pm »
I hope someday to awake suddenly and exclaim "Mah hair!"

Speaking of hair and inside jokes - who is that in your avatar?

Offline sportsfan882

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2009, 12:38:28 pm »
Speaking of hair and inside jokes - who is that in your avatar?
:pimp: ron swanson

he's on "parks and rec" nbc

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2009, 12:39:01 pm »

Quote
"Parks and Recreation: Pilot (#1.1)" (2009)
Ron Swanson: I don't want this parks department to build, any parks, because I don't believe in government. I think that all government is a waste of taxpayer money.

Ron Swanson: My dream is to have the parks system privatized and run entirely for profit, by corporations.

Offline Nathan

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2010, 06:25:31 pm »
Is there a site I can go to where I can directly compare stats?  Like pick 2 pitchers, have the stats side by side to compare the two.

Offline spidernat

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2010, 06:34:41 pm »
Is there a site I can go to where I can directly compare stats?  Like pick 2 pitchers, have the stats side by side to compare the two.


used to be able to do that at Baseball reference but I don't know if you still can.

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2010, 07:08:47 pm »
Is there a site I can go to where I can directly compare stats?  Like pick 2 pitchers, have the stats side by side to compare the two.

The dreaded Fangraphs does it pretty well.

Offline Nathan

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2010, 07:12:52 pm »
The dreaded Fangraphs does it pretty well.
That'll work.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2010, 10:08:04 pm »
Fangraphs does the comparison in graphs.  You can comare by year or by age, and compare against league average, on about 6 or so pitching or hitting stats.  I don't recall it having an option of just doing the stats numerically. 

Offline PANatsFan

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2010, 10:09:30 pm »
Fangraphs does the comparison in graphs.  You can comare by year or by age, and compare against league average, on about 6 or so pitching or hitting stats.  I don't recall it having an option of just doing the stats numerically. 

That's a comparison in my book :stir:

Offline JMUalumni

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2011, 11:00:12 am »
Interesting and well written article on the importance of a catcher's ability to block pitches (confusing stats and statistical jargon included!)

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/another-one-bites-the-dust/

Offline Baseball is Life

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Re: The Stat Geek Thread
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2011, 07:12:23 pm »
I like to draw my own conclusions based on a broad range of data and personal observations.
;)
I like to draw my own conclusions based on very limited data and personal observations.:~)