Author Topic: 2008 Presidential Election  (Read 7396 times)

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Offline kimnat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #50: January 11, 2008, 06:12:48 PM »
Huck's "Christian nation" quote did him in as far as I'm concerned....such folks scare me for obvious reasons. Plus his idiotic regressive tax ideas will never fly. Guiliani is a sh*t, having lived in NY when he was mayor he was the nastiest SOB. He's also running on only one track. Paul's kind of interesting, but a little too wacko for me. And Mr. Michigan should go back to doing Olympics; his policy changes have me dizzy. I read McCain's book, and let me tell you, I have more respect for this guy than all the other GOP'ers together. I don't like his Iraq policy, but if the Republicans want to go back (?) to honesty and character, this is the man.

To be totally truthful I'm in a quandry over the Dem candidates. I liked Richardson, but he was a definite DNF even before the last primary. I could actually feel comfortable with either Clinton, Obama or Edwards, although I think that the latter, baring a South Carolina surprise, is not long for the race as a serious candidate. I'd go for Obama if I thought he could really be elected, but I'm just not that positive that the country as a whole will vote for a black man. I hope I'm wrong, indeed I pray I'm wrong. Having liked Bill, the idea of more Clinton years doesn't bother me, except as a generality that there seems to be a sense of entitlement here. Joe Biden probably was the one candidate who was truly prepared for the Presidency; a shame he couldn't generate any traction.

How's that for not swinging too negative? :)

Dems really should have given more attention to Richardson.  He could have been interesting.  I would have appreciated seeing him discussed more.  I haven't recently heard his positions, but originally, he was quite centrist.  McCain, I could MAYBE live with.  He hasn't always been as good for the republican side as other possibilities have been.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #51: January 11, 2008, 06:14:40 PM »
And this is part of the appeal of McCain to me - he's more faithful to his own convictions than he is to the party line.

Dems really should have given more attention to Richardson.  He could have been interesting.  I would have appreciated seeing him discussed more.  I haven't recently heard his positions, but originally, he was quite centrist.  McCain, I could MAYBE live with.  He hasn't always been as good for the republican side as other possibilities have been.

Offline kimnat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #52: January 11, 2008, 06:14:49 PM »
Politics and Jesus go as well together as alcohol and rat poison.

I've already read or heard about people voting based on "religion" and I just want to smack myself because I wonder, "Why does the Lord allow these people to steal air from little, starving kids in Third World countries?"

Because our faith (regardless of what your religion is) makes up the core of who we are, what we believe and what we see as important in the world around us.

Offline kimnat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #53: January 11, 2008, 06:16:31 PM »
And this is part of the appeal of McCain to me - he's more faithful to his own convictions than he is to the party line.


I understand that.  But that being said, some of his personal convictions don't go with what I feel the direction of our country should be.

Offline kimnat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #54: January 11, 2008, 06:20:00 PM »
See Ronnynat.  I told you this was a pandora's box/can of worms.  Good discussion, but see.....

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #55: January 11, 2008, 06:20:39 PM »
What conviction of his bothers you? I would think he'd be right where you are.

I understand that.  But that being said, some of his personal convictions don't go with what I feel the direction of our country should be.

Offline kimnat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #56: January 11, 2008, 06:22:01 PM »
The campaign finance was one.  I will say, I agree w him on Iraq.  I also am not confident in his immigration stance.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #57: January 11, 2008, 06:22:03 PM »
It's been a nice conversation so far.

See Ronnynat.  I told you this was a pandora's box/can of worms.  Good discussion, but see.....

Offline saltydad

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #58: January 11, 2008, 06:23:27 PM »
I understand that.  But that being said, some of his personal convictions don't go with what I feel the direction of our country should be.

If you haven't read it yet, I really strongly recommend "Faith of My Fathers", by John McCain. You all know that I'm as far from a Republican publicist as you can get  :), but if as Kim says religion (and all that that means) are your core, then you owe it to yourself to read this book before you vote in the GOP primaries.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #59: January 11, 2008, 06:23:35 PM »
I had unexpected consequences, but I don't think they've been all that serious.

The campaign finance was one.

Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #60: January 11, 2008, 06:24:12 PM »
Because our faith (regardless of what your religion is) makes up the core of who we are, what we believe and what we see as important in the world around us.

Ever heard of separation of Church and State?  We are voting to select a leader of a free nation.  Not a Pope.

Offline kimnat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #61: January 11, 2008, 06:26:06 PM »
If you haven't read it yet, I really strongly recommend "Faith of My Fathers", by John McCain. You all know that I'm as far from a Republican publicist as you can get  :), but if as Kim says religion (and all that that means) are your core, then you owe it to yourself to read this book before you vote in the GOP primaries.

Thanks Salty.  I'll take your advice.

Offline kimnat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #62: January 11, 2008, 06:30:44 PM »
Ever heard of separation of Church and State?  We are voting to select a leader of a free nation.  Not a Pope.

The constitution guarantees us freedom OF religion, not FROM religion and prohibits the establishment of a state church.  I agree that we are not electing a religious leader, but one to run our country.  BUT the one that we individually choose is usually the one we find ourselves personally lining up with.  And since our religions (or lack thereof) make up who we are deep down, we tend to seek the candidate that most closely lines up with our view of how things should be run in the country and these political beliefs tend often reach into these core beliefs.

Offline kimnat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #63: January 11, 2008, 06:42:33 PM »
Sorry I need to make a correction.  Snake handlers are part of the "Church of God", not "Primitive Baptists".  Church of God members are strong pentacostals w/ extremely charismatic and out of the mainstream beliefs.  Sorry for the error and confusion there.  Like Primitive Baptists, this other group has roots in Appalachia.

Offline spidernat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #64: January 11, 2008, 06:51:04 PM »
See Ronnynat.  I told you this was a pandora's box/can of worms.  Good discussion, but see.....

The problem is that some people can't help themselves from making disparaging remarks about those who disagree with them or those they dislike or about people who have faith based convictions.

Offline ronnynat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #65: January 11, 2008, 07:08:30 PM »
Hey, I thought it was pretty interesting. There was no snapping or anything.

I think what you guys are talking about it pretty important actually. It definitely shows that people vote for many different reasons. I always thought most people separated Church from State, as NOTLD mentioned, but I can totally understand kimnat's explanation of it as well. I do, however, believe that if you have one guy that shares your religious beliefs and one guy that doesn't, but you feel he would obviously run the country better, you should definitely choose the latter candidate.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #66: January 11, 2008, 07:18:18 PM »
I think you are right. I do think, though, that sometimes people don't look at whether a politician matches their important core values. Take, for instance Nancy Pulosi (forgive me if I mispell her name). My mother despises her as a raging liberal. Yet, she raised a large family - apparently successfully - and is still in her only marriage - the definition of family values. Others "support the troops" but really don't mind that none of the folks in the Bush administration served (okay, Bush served, but just barely). Which party has the most decorated veterans? It isn't the Reps.

It just seems odd to me where folks draw lines sometimes. I'm no exception. I live my life so conservatively you'd think I'd be a raging conservative, but I have tended recently to vote Democratic.

People are weird.



The constitution guarantees us freedom OF religion, not FROM religion and prohibits the establishment of a state church.  I agree that we are not electing a religious leader, but one to run our country.  BUT the one that we individually choose is usually the one we find ourselves personally lining up with.  And since our religions (or lack thereof) make up who we are deep down, we tend to seek the candidate that most closely lines up with our view of how things should be run in the country and these political beliefs tend often reach into these core beliefs.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #67: January 11, 2008, 07:21:51 PM »
Has that really happened in this thread? I spoke favorably of Huckabee. ATBC was obviously going for a laugh. At least I think he was. I think it's been a good conversation.

The problem is that some people can't help themselves from making disparaging remarks about those who disagree with them or those they dislike or about people who have faith based convictions.

Offline kimnat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #68: January 11, 2008, 07:23:40 PM »
I do, however, believe that if you have one guy that shares your religious beliefs and one guy that doesn't, but you feel he would obviously run the country better, you should definitely choose the latter candidate.

It's more than voting for the person who is of the same religion.  What I am saying is that our faith shapes our core beliefs and core values.  I vote according to my core values and who falls in line w/ my core values.  Does that clarify things?  For instance (and this will really open up a can of worms, but here goes), I do not believe abortion is right in any way, shape or form.  (Not saying this to debate, just making a statement)  I look for the candidate who most closely lines up w/ that opinion.  I believe marriage is strictly between a man and a woman and should not be any other combination.  As such, I seek a candidate who most closely agrees w/ that. 

I also don't think people should get away w/ violating our laws and our nation's sovreignty (sp), so I will not vote for someone I see weak on immigration.  I don't believe our gov't is responsible for giving food, shelter, clothing and healthcare to every person residing in our borders, so I won't vote for a socialist.  I see our gov't role as that of protecting our citizens (i.e. need for a military) and upholding the Constitution.  I will seek the candidate who most closely lines up with that.  I do not believe gov't has any right to tell me what type of lightbulb I can buy.  That ticks me off and I will vote accordingly.  I believe in protecting our personal liberty.  I seek that in an appropriate candidate. 


That's along the lines of who I look for in a candidate.  And in some of these areas, my religious beliefs (more of second paragraph above this one) shape my core beliefs/values and thereby the way I vote.

Offline ronnynat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #69: January 11, 2008, 07:44:07 PM »
Quote
I do not believe abortion is right in any way, shape or form.  (Not saying this to debate, just making a statement)

I won't debate this w/ you, but just to clarify, you don't believe in abortions for rape victims either?


Very cool you stick to your beliefs, regardless of the side. It's really hard to find someone to fit all of them, though.

Offline kimnat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #70: January 11, 2008, 07:46:02 PM »
I won't debate this w/ you, but just to clarify, you don't believe in abortions for rape victims either?


Very cool you stick to your beliefs, regardless of the side. It's really hard to find someone to fit all of them, though.

no, controversial, I know.   I'm not asking to overturn roe.  I don't like it or agree w/ it, but not looking to overturn.  That's not going to happen in this day & age.

Yeah, it is hard finding someone to fit all that.

Offline tomterp

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #71: January 11, 2008, 08:37:48 PM »
(Damn, you TT. Yet another cultural reference I don't get. You're almost as smart as ATBC, aren't you? I had to Google it to see that you were making reference to the same event that I was.)


That was right, wasn't it?  The British labor leader who was famous generally for sparkling rhetoric, and who's fiery speach was plagiarized by Biden.  I liked the name so it stuck in my brain.  All these years, those few memory bits finally were slightly useful!

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #72: January 11, 2008, 09:10:46 PM »
Plus [Huckabees's] idiotic regressive tax ideas will never fly.

Actually, that tax is far more progressive than what we have now.  Here is the very short version (which still provides a long post - sorry).

It eliminates all federal taxes and replaces them with a consumption tax.  The tax is inclusive, representing 23% of a products entire cost.  For example, a loaf of bread cost $2.00.  The grocer records $1.54 as revenue, and remits $0.46 of tax.

Currently, with our wide variety of taxes, an average of 22% of the production costs of all goods is federal taxes.  All of those costs are eliminated, thus reducing the cost of goods by an average of 22%.  On a loaf of bread that currently costs $2,00, let's assume the grocer currently makes a reasonable margin of 20%, or $0.40.  That would mean that the cost is $1.60.  Now, reduce that $1.60 by 22%, and the cost drops by $0.35 to $1.25 (think of how much this would help exports – not having taxes built into the cost of our goods and services).  Now, let's once again price in a 20% margin for the grocer, which brings us up to $1.56.  With the cost and profit making up 77% of the total price, the cost of the loaf of bread to the consumer becomes $2.02.

But, you no longer have ANY federal taxes taken out of your paycheck.  If you gross $45,000, you take home $45,000 (less any state taxes).  Further, everyone receive a tax pre-bate.  This is based on the poverty level for your household.  Assuming our person making $45,000 is an individual, the poverty level is about $10,000.  The tax pre-bate would be $2,300, which would be received in as $192 at the beginning of each month.  If this person spend every dime he makes, he would pay a total of 10,350 in federal taxes, which, less the pre-bate, comes to $8,050 in all federal taxes.

Under our current tax system, that same individual would pay $3,443 in social security and medicare taxes, plus, using the standard deduction, another $5,530, which comes out to a sub total of $8,973.  Then, add to that all other federal taxes he pays.  Just using gasoline, if he drives 15,000 miles and makes 20 mpg, there is another $135.  The telephone taxes would be another $200, energy taxes another $300.  We are now up to $9,608, or about $1,558 more than under the plan Huckabee supports.  Those at or near the poverty level are completely removed from the tax rolls, rather than still being stuck with the 7.65% they currently lose in payroll taxes even if they pay no income taxes.

While the poverty stricken are completely removed from the tax rolls, our middle class guy making $45,000 is subject to a tax burden of 17.9%.  Under the current system, his tax burden is 21.4%.  The super wealthy, such as Warren Buffett, currently pay about 17.7%, which would jump to almost exactly 23% - about a 30% increase in their tax burden.

In short, the Huckabee tax plan reduces the tax burden on those in poverty by 100%, our middle class guy by 16%, and increases the burden on the wealthy by 30%.  It is a progressive tax plan, and much more progessive than what we have now.

There are other benefits as well:

-- Better able to compete globally as we level the playing field by having taxes post production as opposed to embedded in production.  Further, the 22% cost reduction will be further enhanced by not having the cost of tax planning and compliance.  According to the Congressional Budget Office, business decisions based on tax planning rather than economic planning cost us 18% of our GDP each year.  For me, this is the biggest benefit – getting the taxes post production.  When Germany exports a BMW to the US, it eliminates its post production Value Added Taxes, making their cars relatively inexpensive compared to our lesser cars that have 22% more embedded into the production cost.  Our workforce is still the most productive in the world, and the elimination of the payroll tax burden alone will make US labor 8% cheaper than Mexican labor.

-- Corporate income taxes are eliminated.  Corporations will flock back to America for the cheaper labor productivity, and the relative tax haven.  I despise most corporate taxes.  When dumbo says she's going tax Exxon for it's huge profits (which are about ½ the profit margin of retailers) people cheer.    They are oblivious to the fact that she is taxing their retirement account.  FWIW – for sales in the US, the federal taxes collected on gasoline are more than twice the profits on gasoline sales for all oil companies combined.  The federal subsidy payment to Archer Daniels Midland was more than the gasoline profits of all oil companies combined.  Every $1 of profits for ADM cost the US taxpayers $30, and a certain individual who lost the 2004 election want to quintuple the subsidies to ADM.

-- Moves a higher burden of taxes to visitors and illegal aliens, who otherwise contribute virtually nothing to the tax revenue base.  Everyone who buys anything in the US pays the tax.  When all the Europeans come to visit, 23% of everything they spend goes into the federal coffers.  The same for the illegals.

-- No more PACs buying tax breaks and influence.  Greatly eliminates the use of the tax code by those running for office as a means of buying votes.  Taxes are eliminated as a campaign issue (which is why PACs and those seeking office just for power, and want to use the tax code to buy votes, hate this plan).

Some of the misleading statements by those striving for political office for the wrong reasons try to finagle numbers, using the following math:

23% of the purchase price is tax, meaning 77% is revenue.  23% / 77% = 30% tax.

But this is an inclusive tax, like payroll taxes and income tax.  Those trying to play down the plan conveniently try to treat is as an exclusive tax, while saying the income and payroll taxes are inclusive If you want to compare that way, lets take the 28% income tax bracket and the 7.65% social security and medicare withholdings.  The total payroll and income taxes total 35.65%.  Using the same math:

35.65% of the paycheck is taxes, meaning 64.35% is personal income.  35.65% /  64.35% = 55.4% tax – and that's before all the other BS federal taxes.

Other things that some say that are misleading is that its a 30% tax on top of what you pay right now, which is not correct.  They say the loaf of bread will cost you $2.60, which is blatantly false.  It still cost right around $2.00.  They also leave out that the reason for this is that the embedded taxes are eliminated, reducing the cost.  Further, they leave out that your take home pay grow dramatically as the payroll and income taxes are eliminated.  Further, your electric, phone, gasoline, and all other expenses which have federal excise taxes will fall.

There are some flaws.  But this handles the biggest problem we face with our asinine tax code - embedded taxes, while still staying progressive - much more progressive than what we have now.  I'd rather see the pre-bate doubled, and the tax rate increased 1% to more than compensate, making it even more progressive.  But, compared to what we have now, this is still untold thousands of times better.

Offline kimnat

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #73: January 11, 2008, 09:30:55 PM »
What about Thompson's point about the potential for Congress to add on income taxes again later unless banned by a Constitutional amendment?

Offline NatsAddict

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Re: 2008 Presidential Election
« Reply #74: January 11, 2008, 09:51:43 PM »
What about Thompson's point about the potential for Congress to add on income taxes again later unless banned by a Constitutional amendment?

As usual, Thompson doesn't have a point and has no idea what on earth he's talking about.  He said that a constitution amendment revoking the 16th would be required.  It wouldn't.  There would be no reason for an income tax, and it would be political suicide to even propose it, just as it would be political suicide to propose a $20/gallon excise tax on milk.  Section 8 of Article 1 provides Congress the right to levy any type of tax.  Section 9 ties in the collection to the census.  The 16th wasn't required to levy the income tax.  The heart of the 16th is that revenue collected are not allocated to the states based upon census (killing off Section 9 of Article 1).

Article 1, Section 8, first line:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States

Article 1, Section 9, near middle:
No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

16th Amendment in full:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

The 16th's elimination of census and enumeration has been interpreted to apply to all federal taxes.