Nationals vs Marlins, Game 3

[Slateman]

Agree with this, but Butera has made irrational decisions with the garbage he has been given. The Lh-Rh decisions are silly. Then Vivas at 3B over House? And House as PH for Abimelec? Playing Tena? House-Nunez-CJ seem the best infield, and Vivas is a decent utility guy. Why start Vivas?

Kranick for the 9th? And then Cosgrove?

Butera isn't making lineup decisions. The front office is.

This is how analytics-heavy/focused teams run the team. The manager doesn't make decisions on the every day lineup. The analytics guys run the numbers and models to get the best lineup for that day. They also run the analytics for matchups later in the game.

[Natsinpwc]

We’re tanking. Embrace it. And hope for ping pong ball luck.

[English Natsie]

Marlins booth crew on the 9th - 'I've never seen anything like it!...'  Unfortunately, we have...

[Slateman]

We’re tanking. Embrace it. And hope for ping pong ball luck.

Except its way too late to actually tank. Oh and the whole point of Toboni was that he finds value in the draft.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Marlins booth crew on the 9th - 'I've never seen anything like it!...'  Unfortunately, we have...

post-game, the play by play guy on Peacock Iasked Franny if it was one of the worst losses. Franny did not say no, but in truth, this was only a 2 run lead. There's been a lot worse. Those 3 Phillies 9th inning comebacks when the Nats were closer to a wild card slot were all worse. There were a few others. This was not top 5.

[Slateman]

post-game, the play by play guy on Peacock Iasked Franny if it was one of the worst losses. Franny did not say no, but in truth, this was only a 2 run lead. There's been a lot worse. Those 3 Phillies 9th inning comebacks when the Nats were closer to a wild card slot were all worse. There were a few others. This was not top 5.

That effectively ended our season. Well, that and Toboni not being wiling to do a damn thing about it.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

That effectively ended our season. Well, that and Toboni not being wiling to do a damn thing about it.

eh, I think they could go 9-14 and finish with their 11th best record overall and best since 2019

[bluestreak]

Butera has done better with nothing than dimwit dave did with a truly great team.  I'll say it again...I had as much or more to do with the Nats wining the World Series than dimwit dave did...

Come on man. Winning a World Series with 1.5 bullpen arms doesn’t just happen. This is crazy talk.

[varoadking]

Come on man. Winning a World Series with 1.5 bullpen arms doesn’t just happen. This is crazy talk.

So here's how I see it...

They would never have sniffed the postseason if the team didn't put 19-31 dimwit dave on their back.  And if not for Trent Grishham, they are one-and-done in the wildcard game.

The way I recall it...as well as the starters pitched in the various series, the bullpen really didn't need much more than Doo, Hudson & Corbin.

Martinez had a GREAT roster and could only muster 1 playoff appearance from 2018-2025, and 2019 was his only winning season here other than the 82-80 in 2018...

You were right to hate him...he was an embarrassment for his entire tenure here.  Have you ever heard even one former player speak highly of his abilities as a manager? 

[bluestreak]

I haven’t heard anyone badmouth him either. Post 2021, I put the blame on ownership. We had better rosters than 2019 (2014 and 2017 come to mind) and they didn’t win.
Have there been any truly bad managers that have won rings? Hell, only 4 current managers have won the World Series: Bochy, Roberts, Francona and Hinch. It’s hard to do. Davey had his flaws, but I’m giving credit where credit is due.

As for Grisham, we are remembering incorrectly.  Even without his error, the Wild card game would have been tied. And winning it all requires some luck. Nats had plenty of bad luck and didn’t win in the past (again, think 2014 and 2017). It’s hard to begrudge them the time they got some good luck.  The Dodgers needed some to win last year and everyone thinks they are a juggernaut.

[tomterp]

I haven’t heard anyone badmouth him either. Post 2021, I put the blame on ownership. We had better rosters than 2019 (2014 and 2017 come to mind) and they didn’t win.
Have there been any truly bad managers that have won rings? Hell, only 4 current managers have won the World Series: Bochy, Roberts, Francona and Hinch. It’s hard to do. Davey had his flaws, but I’m giving credit where credit is due.

As for Grisham, we are remembering incorrectly.  Even without his error, the Wild card game would have been tied. And winning it all requires some luck. Nats had plenty of bad luck and didn’t win in the past (again, think 2014 and 2017). It’s hard to begrudge them the time they got some good luck.  The Dodgers needed some to win last year and everyone thinks they are a juggernaut.

That's a pretty subjective thing to judge, but Joe Altobelli in 1983 comes to mind.

[blue911]

That's a pretty subjective thing to judge, but Joe Altobelli in 1983 comes to mind.

Mine too.

[Natsinpwc]

That's a pretty subjective thing to judge, but Joe Altobelli in 1983 comes to mind.

The guy who managed the Royals in 2015 comes to mind also.

And Dave Roberts reminds us every year talent wins.

[varoadking]

The guy who managed the Royals in 2015 comes to mind also.

Ned Yost...

[Natsinpwc]

Ned Yost...

That’s the man

[NatNasty]

No one did less with more than dave

[imref]

how quickly we forget about Matt Williams, who did less with more.

[NatNasty]

Williams deserves to be forgotten.  He sucked, no doubt about it.  He won more than dave though.  Even with players trying to choke each other in the dugout.

[welch]

Williams deserves to be forgotten.  He sucked, no doubt about it.  He won more than dave though.  Even with players trying to choke each other in the dugout.

Matt Williams was given a powerful team. He made bad decisions in-game, and some of us shivered through Game 2, 2014, the 18-inning game that hinged around the Matt Williams decision to pull Jordan Zimmermann with two outs in the 9th? And then the 2015 season, losing to the Muts?

[Ali the Baseball Cat]

The real shame of the choking episode is that it was not allowed to continue

Williams deserves to be forgotten.  He sucked, no doubt about it.  He won more than dave though.  Even with players trying to choke each other in the dugout.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I'm getting close to closing this thread because it's not really a game discussion now and more a thread about management generally.

[welch]

Butera isn't making lineup decisions. The front office is.

This is how analytics-heavy/focused teams run the team. The manager doesn't make decisions on the every day lineup. The analytics guys run the numbers and models to get the best lineup for that day. They also run the analytics for matchups later in the game.

This suggests that "analytics" is nothing smarter than "always start left-handed batters when the opponent starts a right-hander". There must be something deeper than that.