Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO

[Smithian]

Maybe wrong thread, but I liked the moves DeBartolo made as well.   Nats haven't had decent options in AAA for a really long time.   Provides a little flexibility for Toboni and Butera.

DeBartolo did good work last deadline turning a lot of near worthless assets into something useful.

Our system has had a lot of top ranked prospects over years but been barren in the middle. Last deadline, DeBartolo loaded up on the C-level prospects who you hope pop or at least turn into an asset. Too soon to know if any of those guys will pop, but Sean Paul Linan turned into Curtis Mead.

They aren't "big" moves, but it's the type of small moves that accumulate over time. Rizzo should have been doing them, but instead we had least active front office in baseball over a period of years.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

absolutely. I will update this with a better count, but several good adds were made by DeBartolo: Beeter, Poulin, Eder who Toboni turned into Mead, Linan who turned into Vivas, I think Franklin, and lots of lower minors.

actually, it was a DeBartolo draft choice, Boston Smith, traded for Mead. Eder was DFA'd then traded to dodgers for cash today.

[imref]

saw this earlier as a comment on federal baseball: (summarizing) if the Nats had kept Gore, Ferrer, and Bennett, we'd likely be at least 7-5 right now.

Did we move toward rebuild 2.0 too soon?

Gore has been lights out. Ferrer has allowed 2ER in 7 IP.  Bennett started the year in AAA and has yet to allow an ER in 8 IP.

[varoadking]

saw this earlier as a comment on federal baseball: (summarizing) if the Nats had kept Gore, Ferrer, and Bennett, we'd likely be at least 7-5 right now.

Did we move toward rebuild 2.0 too soon?

Gore has been lights out. Ferrer has allowed 2ER in 7 IP.  Bennett started the year in AAA and has yet to allow an ER in 8 IP.

The goal this year, as it has been since the old man checked-out, was to keep payroll down...it had nothing to do with wins and losses...

[welch]

Did we move toward rebuild 2.0 too soon?

Gore has been lights out. Ferrer has allowed 2ER in 7 IP.  Bennett started the year in AAA and has yet to allow an ER in 8 IP.

Probably, yes. Gore got Fein, so that's a longshot bet. Ferrer returned Harry Ford, who has not hit in Rochester.

However, Toboni faces a hard test right now. What will he do about the bullpen? Only Lord, Henry, and Beeter. The others are hopeless losers.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

saw this earlier as a comment on federal baseball: (summarizing) if the Nats had kept Gore, Ferrer, and Bennett, we'd likely be at least 7-5 right now.

Did we move toward rebuild 2.0 too soon?

Gore has been lights out. Ferrer has allowed 2ER in 7 IP.  Bennett started the year in AAA and has yet to allow an ER in 8 IP.

The goal this year, as it has been since the old man checked-out, was to keep payroll down...it had nothing to do with wins and losses...

none of those guys are expensive this year.

Bennett should not be in an MLB rotation yet. He was beat up in the Spring. I liked him, I'm a high floor guy when you lack a 5 man rotation, I don't like tanking in baseball, I'm a skeptic about Perales, so I think I have my eyes open about that deal (not a hater), but I  don't think Bennett would have been a help yet. Ferrer clearly would have helped the current roster but I loved that deal. As for Gore, I'm more than willing to take the return we got in place of a couple of wins from Gore.

If you want to be a critic of the POBO's construction of the bullpen, maybe it's the emphasis on acquiring guys who are optionable over more established guys to stabilize the bullpen. That seems to explain the Drew Smith cut. I also wonder the whole claim and release in rapid succession approach. It certainly looks like it bit the team in the butt in the Soriano claim then trade for Granillo. Did they not appreciate what they claimed in Soriano? Maybe that's a justifiable move  longer run, but it just seemed a bit hectic.

OTOH, it seems like the Vivas move strengthened the roster.  His ability to get on looks real. As for Mead, jury's out.

[Natsinpwc]

Way too early to jump to conclusions on those moves.  Even with those players the team is not a contender.  Gettin prospects for those guys was the right move.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

There's one set of moves that combine Rizzo, DeBartolo, and Toboni that I think is working out pretty well. Rizzo's waiver claim of Call turned into the Linan/ Swan deal by DeBartolo, then Linan turned into Vivas. I  like Vivas as a high OBP utility infielder playing vs RHP, and Swan has been pitching well in AA.

[imref]

The goal this year, as it has been since the old man checked-out, was to keep payroll down...it had nothing to do with wins and losses...

Ferrar and Bennett are pre-arb. Gore makes $5.6 million this year, which is less than we paid to sign Littell. None of those trades had anything to do with cutting payroll. Instead, Toboni arguably calculated that the team was in worse shape than it was, and they had to go through another rebuild.

[varoadking]

Ferrar and Bennett are pre-arb. Gore makes $5.6 million this year, which is less than we paid to sign Littell. None of those trades had anything to do with cutting payroll. Instead, Toboni arguably calculated that the team was in worse shape than it was, and they had to go through another rebuild.

It was to get something for Gore before he broke or cost them an arm and a leg...

[welch]

Toboni failed to find a bullpen. The weight should be on him to fix the mess he made. What use is Perez? Or Waldichuk, Granillo, and Varland? Butera can trust Lord, Beeter, and Henry, as long as he has Beeter and Henry pitch only one inning. The bullpen junk needs to be thrown away. And Mikolas, as well.

What moves will Toboni make for the next series?

[Slateman]

saw this earlier as a comment on federal baseball: (summarizing) if the Nats had kept Gore, Ferrer, and Bennett, we'd likely be at least 7-5 right now.

Did we move toward rebuild 2.0 too soon?

Gore has been lights out. Ferrer has allowed 2ER in 7 IP.  Bennett started the year in AAA and has yet to allow an ER in 8 IP.

Probably. Hard to say. Ferrer fixes the pen, but hes definitely better than everyone else.

Will never understand the Bennett trade. Dude was a copy of Connelly Early.

[welch]

Probably. Hard to say. Ferrer fixes the pen, but hes definitely better than everyone else.

Will never understand the Bennett trade. Dude was a copy of Connelly Early.

Toboni lost all three trades, unless Fien turns out to be the next Gunnar Henderson...and Henderson is good, but not an annual All-Star. The other prospects look like career .250-hitting minor leaguers. Ortiz sometimes has had some pop, but not at Rochester. Fitz-Gerald? Maybe another utility infielder who tops out at AAA.

And Ferrer is an ugly loss to what was a terrible bullpen. Last season, DeBartolo traded Finnegan for a nobody and an A-player who is hurt, while Finnegan was good enough that the Tigers signed him to a nice extension.

Every year, Rizzo used to find a guy like Andrew Chafin, with that great relief-pitcher's mustache, and old guy who could manage an ERA about 3.50. Toboni has filled out the bullpen with young-ish relief pitchers who never were any good, and who blow up game after game.

Maybe Toboni will turn out better, when the Nats have become a "drafting and development monster". It is early, the "drafting and development" is still talk.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Fitz-Gerald? Maybe another utility infielder who tops out at AAA.

Or, the evaluators could be right and he turns into a top 100 prospect next year by meeting the Jed Lowrie comp.
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/picks-to-click-who-we-expect-to-make-the-2027-top-100/

There’s some volatility there, but Fitz-Gerald definitely looked more like a late first round talent last year than a late third rounder, where a $900,000 bonus is the slot amount. Switch-hitters with this kind of pop from both sides of the plate don’t exactly grow on trees — not even in Florida. This is a potential switch-hitting regular at second or third base who shares a lot of similarities with Jed Lowrie.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/cherry-blossom-seeds-washington-eyes-rebirth-with-five-prospect-haul-in-gore-trade/

Can't write off a guy who has more walks than Ks at every level and projects to MLB power, especially in his age 20 season.

[nobleisthyname]

Toboni failed to find a bullpen. The weight should be on him to fix the mess he made.

I don't know if I would say Toboni made this mess given the state it was in when he was hired. It wasn't exactly lights out last season either.

Toboni lost all three trades, unless Fien turns out to be the next Gunnar Henderson...and Henderson is good, but not an annual All-Star. The other prospects look like career .250-hitting minor leaguers. Ortiz sometimes has had some pop, but not at Rochester. Fitz-Gerald? Maybe another utility infielder who tops out at AAA.

And Ferrer is an ugly loss to what was a terrible bullpen. Last season, DeBartolo traded Finnegan for a nobody and an A-player who is hurt, while Finnegan was good enough that the Tigers signed him to a nice extension.

Every year, Rizzo used to find a guy like Andrew Chafin, with that great relief-pitcher's mustache, and old guy who could manage an ERA about 3.50. Toboni has filled out the bullpen with young-ish relief pitchers who never were any good, and who blow up game after game.

Maybe Toboni will turn out better, when the Nats have become a "drafting and development monster". It is early, the "drafting and development" is still talk.

1. It is waaay too early to judge these trades as having been won or lost. Declaring so definitively at this point is ridiculous.

2. Rizzo was god awful at building a bullpen. For every Chafin you had to sit through months of Poche, Sims, and López. Let's not overly romanticize the Rizzo era bullpens.

[IanRubbish]

Pitchers were 29th in ERA last year, same this year.  What's surprised me is the starters not only rank 30th in ERA, their P/IP is still worst in the league.  They need an exorcist to get rid of the ghosts of Hickey. 

[welch]

So maybe it was not Hickey, and more like terrible pitchers. This year's bullpen has been good, if in Harrisburg. Maybe they will improve, although they are too old to suggest they just need to get back to how the pitched. The starters are OK, altough it hurts that Cavalli is the ace. Lose Mikolas for someone mediocre and the numbers will improve. If the rel;ievers can be as good as last night, then...

[varoadking]

Pitchers were 29th in ERA last year, same this year.  What's surprised me is the starters not only rank 30th in ERA, their P/IP is still worst in the league.  They need an exorcist to get rid of the ghosts of Hickey.

I think it's actually the curse of Patrick Corbin...

[HalfSmokes]

Way too early to jump to conclusions on those moves.  Even with those players the team is not a contender.  Gettin prospects for those guys was the right move.

Getting prospects is always the right move. No pressure to win or spend if you’re permanently rebuilding

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Pitchers were 29th in ERA last year, same this year.  What's surprised me is the starters not only rank 30th in ERA, their P/IP is still worst in the league.  They need an exorcist to get rid of the ghosts of Hickey. 

I don't think it's so much nibbling by the starters as just getting racked. The only guy pitching quality but burning through pitches has been Cavalli; he's been  this year's Gore.

[Smithian]

We’ve played two weeks of games. I think it is way too early for broad judgements and just barely enough sample size for early observations. And 6-8 is either an underwhelming stretch for a winning team or “signs of life” on a loser.

So far, I like Toboni’s move. To judge him on actual results I need months of results, not weeks.

[nobleisthyname]

And 6-8 is either an underwhelming stretch for a winning team or “signs of life” on a loser.

And except for the Cardinals that 6-8 has come exclusively against playoff contenders.