Author Topic: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO  (Read 12105 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Squab

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 5009
  • me lookin at the bullpen
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #475 on: August 31, 2026, 10:07:22 pm »
If you think he lost the Gore trade I don't know what to tell you.

Mead will regress to what his statcast data says and Early will be a solid starter.

Dion has pitched better than Griffin has since the trade. (0.4 WAR + 3 scoreless tonight - Griffin has been 0.2 WAR)

Garcia has been a loss but Grable and Cebert show promise.

The only real loss has been Bennett/Perales. And on Bennett the Red Sox changed his arm angle... Who knows if that ever happens in DC and he becomes another Jackson Kent.

agreed. his major deuce was the bullpen this year, and i think he’s already shown he’s learned from that, but otherwise i think im pretty happy with his performance so far.

Offline aspenbubba

  • Posts: 6674
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #476 on: September 01, 2026, 06:57:28 am »
If you think he lost the Gore trade I don't know what to tell you.

Mead will regress to what his statcast data says and Early will be a solid starter.

Dion has pitched better than Griffin has since the trade. (0.4 WAR + 3 scoreless tonight - Griffin has been 0.2 WAR)

Garcia has been a loss but Grable and Cebert show promise.

The only real loss has been Bennett/Perales. And on Bennett the Red Sox changed his arm angle... Who knows if that ever happens in DC and he becomes another Jackson Kent.



You missed my point as I was not comparing the performance of the traded players to the newly acquired players but evaluating the prospects and their potential of the newly acquired players. My belief is that none will be on the OD roster of the team three years from now with the exception of Early.

Offline welch

  • Posts: 20308
  • The Sweetest Right Handed Swing in 1950s Baseball
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #477 on: September 01, 2026, 06:46:04 pm »
If you think he lost the Gore trade I don't know what to tell you.

Mead will regress to what his statcast data says and Early will be a solid starter.

Dion has pitched better than Griffin has since the trade. (0.4 WAR + 3 scoreless tonight - Griffin has been 0.2 WAR)

Garcia has been a loss but Grable and Cebert show promise.

The only real loss has been Bennett/Perales. And on Bennett the Red Sox changed his arm angle... Who knows if that ever happens in DC and he becomes another Jackson Kent.



So tell me. Did Topboni "win" that trade? Or break even? Why is Cabrema better than Christhian Vaquero? Yet another good field / light hitting OF. The pitcher Toboni got has a bad arm. Fitz-Gerald seems "surplus to requirements", another good-fielding infielder. Fien is a definite possibility, in three or four years. Abimelec? Another maybe.

In all Toboni's trades, the best we can say is that maybe, in four or five years, some of them will still be in the organization.

Early is hurt. Maybe he will pitch in 2027, maybe in 2028, and maybe in 2029. Mead made a difference.

Perales needs one more chance, and maybe he has been nervous. We will see, but so far, that was a bad trade.

Why is Vivas on the team? I mean other than Toboni traded for him...

The Griffin and Garcia trades gathered bodies into the minors. Otherwise? And let's talk about Kranick and Cosgrove. Why them? They were never any good with other teams. Why are they with the Nats this late in the season??

Online bluestreak

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11677
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #478 on: September 01, 2026, 11:48:02 pm »
I’m glad no one here (other than maybe slate or JCA) is the actual POBO

Online tomterp

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 35020
  • Hell yes!
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #479 on: September 02, 2026, 07:47:06 am »

In all Toboni's trades, the best we can say is that maybe, in four or five years, some of them will still be in the organization.


That's an incomplete view of their value.  They can also be traded, in which case the player(s) traded for may themselves give value to the organization. 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 54263
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #480 on: September 02, 2026, 09:18:10 am »
That's an incomplete view of their value.  They can also be traded, in which case the player(s) traded for may themselves give value to the organization. 
I'll go further and partially answer Aspen.

With the stack of middle infielders, it would not surprise me if Fitz-Gerald eventually is traded. I think the Gore deal probably yields 2-3 major leaguers. Ortiz may stick, Fitz-Gerald looks like he's figuring things out, and I won't pull the plug  on Fien or Rosario. Cabrera was a decent roll of the dice - there were reasons to  think he could outplay his scouting reports - and he looked good before he met his match in Wilmington.

As for the other deals, I don't think Cebert or Hartle will be great shakes, but I'd be surprised if neither gets a decent run in the majors. Also, don't sleep on Isaac Lyon, the throw in in the Ford deal. He's made it to AAA on a good season. I also am pretty confident in my loyalty to Harry Ford.

Dion looks like a nice return on Griffin, even if Hartle flames out. I don't have confidence in the other pieces. As fro the Garcia return, Cruz is a wild card, but I'm looking forward to seeing  Grable and Cebert has a real shot at being useful.

As for Perales, I forget what I said at the time. I know there was a good chunk of remorse in Boston when the deal was done because some had thought Perales's stuff was top of the rotation before his injury. That said, I think that was a loss for Toboni.

 

Online imref

  • Posts: 54120
  • Rebuilding since 2022...
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #481 on: September 02, 2026, 09:37:32 am »
I’m glad no one here (other than maybe slate or JCA) is the actual POBO

ZDK as POBO would certainly make things interesting. :)

Offline varoadking

  • Posts: 32887
  • King of Goodness
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #482 on: September 02, 2026, 05:28:08 pm »
I’m glad no one here (other than maybe slate or JCA) is the actual POBO

 :yesyes: I'd have the organization straightened out from top to bottom before the end of the Labor Day weekend...


Online bluestreak

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11677
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #483 on: September 03, 2026, 12:45:10 am »
:yesyes: I'd have the organization straightened out from top to bottom before the end of the Labor Day weekend...

How many employees would be left between the team and the front office? 8?

Offline varoadking

  • Posts: 32887
  • King of Goodness
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #484 on: September 03, 2026, 06:19:11 pm »
How many employees would be left between the team and the front office? 8?

We don't need no stinkin' employees...I can get my own coffee.  We'll get some vigilante, independent contractors and put them on commission to take scalps...ride or die...

I'd start running it like Arthur Blank...make the fans want to come see my crap show instead of just hoping they do...

Offline welch

  • Posts: 20308
  • The Sweetest Right Handed Swing in 1950s Baseball
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #485 on: September 09, 2026, 09:18:17 pm »
Toboni has traded major leaguers for multiple prospects, and especially for minor league relief pitchers. Does he continue in November? What measurement tells us that enough is enough, and the Nats want to win games?

Online Lintyfresh85

  • Posts: 35271
  • World Champions!!!
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #486 on: September 09, 2026, 09:40:48 pm »
We sat through six years of Rizzo driving a franchise into the ground and you want to cut bait on a guy that revitalized the minor league system and brought the organization into the 21st century after just one mostly successful year?

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 29376
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #487 on: September 09, 2026, 10:52:23 pm »
Can’t turn the Titanic that quickly. He’s not going anywhere. Assess the trades in a couple years

Offline welch

  • Posts: 20308
  • The Sweetest Right Handed Swing in 1950s Baseball
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #488 on: September 10, 2026, 08:52:24 am »
We sat through six years of Rizzo driving a franchise into the ground and you want to cut bait on a guy that revitalized the minor league system and brought the organization into the 21st century after just one mostly successful year?

I want Toboni to try to win games. Losing 9-2 is a Toboni-win?

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 71074
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #489 on: September 10, 2026, 10:05:48 am »
Can’t turn the Titanic that quickly. He’s not going anywhere. Assess the trades in a couple years
Agreed. There will also be more trades.

He stated on Day 1 that he was rebuilding the organization. The last 6 years mean nothing, so this is effectively starting over.


Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 71074
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #490 on: September 10, 2026, 10:11:14 am »
I want Toboni to try to win games. Losing 9-2 is a Toboni-win?
Be honest, how many wins did you predict before the season started? Before the offseason had even started? Here's what everyone else predicted: https://www.wnff.net/index.php?topic=42501.msg2389109#msg2389109

One person on the board had them getting to 75 wins. Four posters had them at 70 or better. No sports analyst had them getting this many wins.

The Nationals haven't managed better than a 71-win pace since 2019. They are currently 5 shy of surpassing that with 14 games to go in the season. That's a pretty significant improvement and something that Toboni can hang his hat on.

Online imref

  • Posts: 54120
  • Rebuilding since 2022...
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #491 on: September 10, 2026, 11:45:12 am »
Looking at the whole season, there have most definitely been improvements, and the team is much better positioned for the long-haul. But looking at where we were at the All Star Break, this team is profoundly disappointing.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 54263
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #492 on: September 10, 2026, 11:55:25 am »
What if I said the sour grapes more or less comes down to the performance of Connelly Early and Luis Perales. If these guys had performed close to the value given up, I don't think most folks would be complaining. A Bennett type would have stabilized the rotation beyond Cavalli and Griffin until he was dealt, and had Early been able to step in, the team wouldn't have been burned too much by House's growth replacing Mead.

Offline welch

  • Posts: 20308
  • The Sweetest Right Handed Swing in 1950s Baseball
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #493 on: September 10, 2026, 12:49:21 pm »
Be honest, how many wins did you predict before the season started? Before the offseason had even started? Here's what everyone else predicted: https://www.wnff.net/index.php?topic=42501.msg2389109#msg2389109

One person on the board had them getting to 75 wins. Four posters had them at 70 or better. No sports analyst had them getting this many wins.

The Nationals haven't managed better than a 71-win pace since 2019. They are currently 5 shy of surpassing that with 14 games to go in the season. That's a pretty significant improvement and something that Toboni can hang his hat on.

I had guessed about 75 wins, hoping for more from Wood, CJ, and Lile, plus Crews and House improving with more experience. Thought the bullpen and rotation were both a mystery. As the season started, and until the trade deadline, this looked like a .500 team that needed a couple of relievers and needed to drop Littell and Mikolas.

Toboni traded Griffen and Garcia for a load of prospect relievers, traded Mead for a pitcher with a sore arm. Quantity over quality.

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 71074
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #494 on: September 10, 2026, 01:08:06 pm »
I had guessed about 75 wins, hoping for more from Wood, CJ, and Lile, plus Crews and House improving with more experience. Thought the bullpen and rotation were both a mystery. As the season started, and until the trade deadline, this looked like a .500 team that needed a couple of relievers and needed to drop Littell and Mikolas.

Toboni traded Griffen and Garcia for a load of prospect relievers, traded Mead for a pitcher with a sore arm. Quantity over quality.

So, Toboni met your hopes this year and you want to fire him?

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 71074
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #495 on: September 10, 2026, 01:10:17 pm »
What if I said the sour grapes more or less comes down to the performance of Connelly Early and Luis Perales. If these guys had performed close to the value given up, I don't think most folks would be complaining. A Bennett type would have stabilized the rotation beyond Cavalli and Griffin until he was dealt, and had Early been able to step in, the team wouldn't have been burned too much by House's growth replacing Mead.
I would say you are wrong. The sour grapes stems ( :rimshot: ) realizing that the front office had no intention of trying to make the playoffs this year, no matter what was going on. This team could have been 105-0 and Toboni still pulls the trigger on those trades, starting with Mead. He had zero intention of trying to do anything competitive this year.

We had the best offense in baseball. Not a good offense. Not a great one. The best. We scored the most runs. We were top 3 in wRC+. We hit the most homers. We made contact and peppered pitchers with a mix of guys who take a lot of pitches vs guys who swing away. This offense was built for October. Yea, the second half was a bit weak, but that could have been improved by calling up Ortiz and Chapparo sooner and not giving at bats to Nunez and Tena. Or even giving actual prospects like King a chance.

I can't think of a single team in baseball that was as good, offensively, as we were going into the deadline that had a firesale like we did. Like, who does that? Who is that close to the playoffs with the number 1 offense and trades away the middle of their order to NOT get MLB talent back? That's wild. I'll go ahead and guess that has never happened before.

The sour grapes is from Toboni not trying this season and there not being any kind of funding to facilitate trying this season.


Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 54263
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #496 on: September 10, 2026, 01:34:42 pm »
Only quibble is Early is MLB talent and if he's  pitching, that makes up for Griffin and House comes close to Mead. I think the Garcia trade unblocked Chaparro and gave us a good or two week of Ortiz and Morales, so it wasn't that bad for the offense. I don't think we b!tch about the Garcia deal if we were getting anything out of Early and if Perales was a solid rotation piece.

Mind  you, we knew / should have known we were getting nothing out  of Early, so the Mead deal stunk for this year, and the Perales deal was trading solid help for a lottery ticket that gives no indication of working out. So yes, there's no indication they tried to contend, and the only impact of the pre-deadline performance was to make the team delay the sell off we all know was inevitable.


Online imref

  • Posts: 54120
  • Rebuilding since 2022...
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #497 on: September 10, 2026, 01:49:24 pm »

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 54263
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #498 on: September 10, 2026, 03:05:24 pm »
Passan noting that beyond Skubal, the 2027 FA class is very weak.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/49881419/mlb-free-agency-offseason-early-intel-contracts-skubal-chisholm-arraez
there are  4 or 5 relief arms like Morejon mentioned in that article. Need one high-end guy plus maybe a depth piece. Starters are concern unless we go with guys who have not shown anything so far. So far, it's Cavalli, Alvarez, and Early if healthy.

Online Squab

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 5009
  • me lookin at the bullpen
Re: Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO
« Reply #499 on: September 10, 2026, 03:14:21 pm »
there are  4 or 5 relief arms like Morejon mentioned in that article. Need one high-end guy plus maybe a depth piece. Starters are concern unless we go with guys who have not shown anything so far. So far, it's Cavalli, Alvarez, and Early if healthy.

I wonder how much of the scant budget could reasonably be allocated to a reliever, and if that's a smart investment considering how volatile they are. especially when we've got guys like Sime/Susana that have the stuff and will likely end up there.

a guy like Sean Newcomb maybe makes sense to me, innings eater that keeps the ball in the yard, old enough that he's probably not gonna get a huge deal. suppose you'd have to look for comps, but maybe he could be had for 6 or 8 mil? but he's basically the better left-handed Brad Lord? is that worth anywhere near that much money to us. idk. it's basically what Will Dion has been already.