Toboni: Not just a Jabroni for POBO

[wj73]

Too bad Butera has no control over that

Agree that he has no direct control, but I think he has some indirect control, or at least input. If he reports to Toboni that he has to spend an inordinate amount of time teaching remedial fundamentals to players that have come up through the Nats system, then that is a another voice supporting a hard look at our player development system.

[Slateman]

Agree that he has no direct control, but I think he has some indirect control, or at least input. If he reports to Toboni that he has to spend an inordinate amount of time teaching remedial fundamentals to players that have come up through the Nats system, then that is a another voice supporting a hard look at our player development system.

So 3-5 years from now, Butera will be able to write a report on the minor league system?

If Toboni cant figure that out over a cup of coffee with Cairo and a half hour worth of watching games, we may as well just fire him and start over.

Butera will have little to no impact on the minor leagues or teaching fundamentals. He will be too busy trying to learn how to manage a MLB team.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Too bad Butera has no control over that

a lot of this discussion about the organization belongs in the Toboni thread but I haven't bothered to move it.

[blue911]

Weaver thought the organization had strayed from the fundamentals of the Oriole Way. With Dalton’s support, he brought the philosophy back to the forefront. Richards’ little manual had been expanded into a bigger book that told a player what to do from the moment he walked into the clubhouse. “It was a detailed, position-by-position, definitive system of how the game should be taught and played,” farm director Lou Gorman said. “Every player in the organization had to read and absorb the manual, at every level, and play the game on the field the Orioles way.”8 There was another manual for instructors and a third one for scouts. This was not an original idea; Branch Rickey had standardized instruction in the Cardinals and Dodgers organizations. But the Orioles stuck with their way through a succession of owners, front-office executives, and managers.

[blue911]

https://sabr.org/bioproj/topic/the-oriole-way/

[wj73]

Weaver thought the organization had strayed from the fundamentals of the Oriole Way. With Dalton’s support, he brought the philosophy back to the forefront. Richards’ little manual had been expanded into a bigger book that told a player what to do from the moment he walked into the clubhouse. “It was a detailed, position-by-position, definitive system of how the game should be taught and played,” farm director Lou Gorman said. “Every player in the organization had to read and absorb the manual, at every level, and play the game on the field the Orioles way.”8 There was another manual for instructors and a third one for scouts. This was not an original idea; Branch Rickey had standardized instruction in the Cardinals and Dodgers organizations. But the Orioles stuck with their way through a succession of owners, front-office executives, and managers.

Thanks, Blue. The Oriole Way was exactly the model I was thinking of. From the first day a rookie walks into a clubhouse, he is expected to comport himself this way. 


From the article Blue linked:

Every spring he brought minor league managers and coaches to the major league camp and indoctrinated them in his system so the techniques would be taught the same way from the top to the bottom of the organization. Dick Williams, an Orioles utilityman and future Hall of Fame manager, recalled how Richards opened spring training by taking players to the on-deck circle: “This is what we do going up to the plate as far as looking at the coaches and getting the sign is concerned.”Richards made a circuit of the bases, explaining offensive and defensive plays at each stop. The lectures went on for about two hours a time; it took him three days to cover the entire field.

[varoadking]

Thanks, Blue. The Oriole Way was exactly the model I was thinking of. From the first day a rookie walks into a clubhouse, he is expected to comport himself this way. 

From the article Blue linked:

You have to wonder if the failure(s) to do this anymore is a lack of fundamental knowledge by the coaches/managers themselves, or simply a case of them being lazy...or both...

[Natsinpwc]

You have to wonder if the failure(s) to do this anymore is a lack of fundamental knowledge by the coaches/managers themselves, or simply a case of them being lazy...or both...

I think it’s a generational thing.  Younger people won’t just accept being told to do things a certain way.  Especially when they can look at the internet and see alternatives.  Dodger way seems good. I would seek that.  We know they sign everyone but their system has a long track record of producing.

[HalfSmokes]

I think it’s a generational thing.  Younger people won’t just accept being told to do things a certain way.  Especially when they can look at the internet and see alternatives.  Dodger way seems good. I would seek that.  We know they sign everyone but their system has a long track record of producing.

I’m sure Dodger prospects care a lot more about staying in the Dodger system. Guys know that stats matter more than whatever way when it comes to call ups and promotions. Hit well enough while crapting on the oriole way and you either get promoted or traded (win win for most guys). Follow direction to a tee, but hit .225 with no power and you either getting cut or demoted

[Natsinpwc]

I’m sure Dodger prospects care a lot more about staying in the Dodger system. Guys know that stats matter more than whatever way when it comes to call ups and promotions. Hit well enough while crapting on the oriole way and you either get promoted or traded (win win for most guys). Follow direction to a tee, but hit .225 with no power and you either getting cut or demoted

It was always that way in sports. Kids were just more willing to accept authority direction before. Most guys in the minors will never make it. 

[HalfSmokes]

It was always that way in sports. Kids were just more willing to accept authority direction before. Most guys in the minors will never make it. 

It’s hard to accept that your role is filling out a roster so that the guys with promise have somewhere to play.

[blue911]

Thanks, Blue. The Oriole Way was exactly the model I was thinking of. From the first day a rookie walks into a clubhouse, he is expected to comport himself this way. 


From the article Blue linked:

I equate it to a school district designing a curriculum to ensure all students at each grade are taught the same core subjects. And that each grade provides the building blocks for the next grade.

[imref]

Toboni is scheduled to be on MLB network at 11:30 ET today.

[Smithian]

Doesn't every team have an organizational model where the older the player gets, the more they go from generic baseball instruction to by the time they're in AAA they're running same terminology and structure as the big club?

Butera obviously is not going to be sitting around wondering the the Wilmington Blue Rocks are properly coaching up basic alignments so that players arriving in Harrisburg are on schedule. Still, I absolutely believe when Rizzo and Martinez year after year let the major league club become a shambolic mess consistently dead worst in the majors defensively and sloppy on the basepaths, that culture seeps down the organization. I have no clue who will be managing Rochester next season, but if he knows his ass will be in the fire if guys he sends to DC aren't ready to play clean baseball, then that is the culture you want and how a manager can positively, or negatively, affect an organization up and down the levels.

[hotshot]

My fave part of the article Blue provided:

"By then Richards and McLaughlin had created the player development scheme that came to be known as “The Oriole Way.” The team established a minor league spring training base in the piney woods at Thomasville, Georgia, on the grounds of a rest home for war veterans. Uniform numbers rose into triple digits—pitcher Steve Barber drew number 285 in his first camp. That was about 100 more players than could fit on the rosters of the eight farm clubs. Minor league managers and coaches graded the prospects and suspects in hitting, running, throwing, power and pitching.

In the evenings the staff met in a conference room called “The Bird’s Nest” to cut the ones who didn’t measure up. A 30-year-old minor league manager, Earl Weaver, became director of the Thomasville camp in 1961. When he delivered the painful verdict, ending a young man’s dream, he said, “Some of them cry, others get mad, a few go crazy. One pulled a knife on me.”

[Natsinpwc]

I don’t want the Nats to live in the past.  How about figuring out what Tampa Bay does on a low budget to draft and develop players.  And use analytics more effectively. Something to show young players why fundamentals are important using actual data.  And launch angles and spin rates and things that matter.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

What the Doyers do is essentially Rays with an unlimited budget. Tweaking pitches based on data, finding versatile players to give lineup flexibility, using platoons, strong development, then throwing big $ at special players. The latter is the Doyers gloss on the extra 2%. Mookie is a classic Doyers pickup. More or less Chris Taylor versatility with HoF talent grabbed for developed talent from a team that wouldn't pay for his value.

I don't think the Lerners are ready for the last step yet, or maybe ever since Ted passed, but if Toboni brings the rest here, that's a nice start.

[HalfSmokes]

What the Doyers do is essentially Rays with an unlimited budget. Tweaking pitches based on data, finding versatile players to give lineup flexibility, using platoons, strong development, then throwing big $ at special players. The latter is the Doyers gloss on the extra 2%. Mookie is a classic Doyers pickup. More or less Chris Taylor versatility with HoF talent grabbed for developed talent from a team that wouldn't pay for his value.

I don't think the Lerners are ready for the last step yet, or maybe ever since Ted passed, but if Toboni brings the rest here, that's a nice start.

Cheap teams can only compete if teams willing to spend stay dumb. Thankfully the Mets are still in full on retard mode

[Natsinpwc]

There is almost always at least one cheap team in the mix.  Milwaukee makes the playoffs frequently.  TB made it five straight years.  Royals were in the playoffs 2024. So it’s possible. Just would have to get really lucky to make a World Series.

[imref]

Toboni on mlb network: https://x.com/klwoodjr/status/1988356593709121779?s=20

[HalfSmokes]

There is almost always at least one cheap team in the mix.  Milwaukee makes the playoffs frequently.  TB made it five straight years.  Royals were in the playoffs 2024. So it’s possible. Just would have to get really lucky to make a World Series.

There are lots of cheap teams, there are a few big spenders. To argue that being cheap doesn’t massively effect your odds of winning the World Series is disingenuous. This was written before the dodgers streak, so nothing has changed
https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/to-win-a-world-series-teams-almost-always-have-to-spend/

[Natsinpwc]

There are lots of cheap teams, there are a few big spenders. To argue that being cheap doesn’t massively effect your odds of winning the World Series is disingenuous. This was written before the dodgers streak, so nothing has changed
https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/to-win-a-world-series-teams-almost-always-have-to-spend/

Doesn’t contradict what I said.  Let’s compete for playoffs and then maybe they will sell the team.

[Slateman]

Doesn’t contradict what I said.  Let’s compete for playoffs and then maybe they will sell the team.

If we're actually making the playoffs on a bottom 10 payroll, it will be immensely profitable. They won't sell.

[Natsinpwc]

If we're actually making the playoffs on a bottom 10 payroll, it will be immensely profitable. They won't sell.

Don’t be so sure.  The rich grow tired of their toys.  Especially inherited toys. Money from a sale can be used to buy new toys and generate more stable revenue.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Cheap teams can only compete if teams willing to spend stay dumb. Thankfully the Mets are still in full on retard mode

Even Marlins fans are