Author Topic: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025  (Read 6098 times)

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Offline Mattionals

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #125 on: July 29, 2025, 01:07:49 pm »
I've been sitting with the thought that I may have to follow at a distance until ownership changes. I went through Loria and I fear I can't do it again.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #126 on: July 29, 2025, 01:18:30 pm »
I've been sitting with the thought that I may have to follow at a distance until ownership changes. I went through Loria and I fear I can't do it again.
do that, and you are distancing yourself from Wood, who is awesome.

Offline Smithian

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #127 on: July 29, 2025, 01:26:07 pm »
My point in saying that the 2019 team was lucky is that they weren't as good as some of the earlier teams, and everything seemed to break our way that year from the RF error in the WC, to Roberts' horrible managing, to Howie's shot off the foul pole on a golf shot.

Yes, they were talented, but arguably not as good as the Dodgers or Astros, whom we beat that year.
A lineup with Trea Turner, Anthony Rendon, and Juan Soto is pretty damn good and being able to go 1-2-3 Sherzer-Strasburg-Corbin is also pretty stacked. Victor Robles also had a great season, Eaton was a very good leadoff hitter, Kendrick was very good, and the bullpen was pretty deep in arms.

If that was an undertalented team I don't know what the expectations were.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #128 on: July 29, 2025, 02:27:59 pm »
Other than Hudson and Doolittle, there wasn't a contributor in the bullpen during the playoffs. Rodney gave them some innings, and of course there were the starters Moonlighting between starts, but otherwise the bullpen was thin

Offline Mattionals

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #129 on: July 29, 2025, 03:22:28 pm »
do that, and you are distancing yourself from Wood, who is awesome.

He is, but given what we are seeing now, he will just get flipped at some point just like Soto. It's pretty bleak right now.

Offline imref

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #130 on: July 29, 2025, 03:29:15 pm »
A lineup with Trea Turner, Anthony Rendon, and Juan Soto is pretty damn good and being able to go 1-2-3 Sherzer-Strasburg-Corbin is also pretty stacked. Victor Robles also had a great season, Eaton was a very good leadoff hitter, Kendrick was very good, and the bullpen was pretty deep in arms.

If that was an undertalented team I don't know what the expectations were.

Not saying it was undertalented, just not as talented as some of the previous teams.

The NLDS roster in 2017 was just as,  if not more, stacked:

C. Weiters
1B. Lind / Zimmerman
2B. Murphy
SS: Turner
3B. Rendon
OF: Harper / Robles / Werth (Goodwin/Kendrick/Taylor bench)
SP Strasburg, Scherzer, Gio, Roark
RP: Albers, Kintzler, Madson, Doo as the A-team

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #131 on: July 29, 2025, 03:59:15 pm »
Not saying it was undertalented, just not as talented as some of the previous teams.

The NLDS roster in 2017 was just as,  if not more, stacked:

C. Weiters
1B. Lind / Zimmerman
2B. Murphy
SS: Turner
3B. Rendon
OF: Harper / Robles / Werth (Goodwin/Kendrick/Taylor bench)
SP Strasburg, Scherzer, Gio, Roark
RP: Albers, Kintzler, Madson, Doo as the A-team

2017 Nationals 46.1 Wins Above Replacement (https://www.baseball-reference.com/tools/share.fcgi?id=vhBg9)
2019 Nationals 45.5 WAR (https://www.baseball-reference.com/tools/share.fcgi?id=ezTz2)

Those teams were pretty much the same

Online Slateman

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #132 on: July 29, 2025, 04:06:49 pm »
Along Bluestreak's points, you could probably make a better case that Davey Johnson was past his prime, Matt Williams was a travesty, and Dusty had some bad breaks and slow reactions in the playoffs than you can criticizing Martinez's handling of 2019. Worst you could say is, with that talent, they never should have been 19-31. Now, I'd take Dusty probably over all of them, especially as a regular season manager, and I think Davey ended up with maybe the worst set of coaches and he exhausted his ability to get the players to improve, but he handled a veteran, high talent team pretty well. This is not a veteran, high talent team, so he had to go, maybe years ago, along with the p-poor coaching staff. That said, this is a LOD thread, so it's ok to focus on how ineffective he was.

As for Mr. Rizzo, if the stat is right that the nats minor leagues the last 3 seasons were in the bottom 3 in xwOBA offensively and K%-BB% pitching, then that's true LOD performance.
Dusty made incredibly poor decisions in the postseason. It wasn't "bad luck."

Offline Mattionals

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #133 on: July 29, 2025, 04:11:51 pm »
Dusty made incredibly poor decisions in the postseason. It wasn't "bad luck."

It took Houston to make a Dusty proof roster. The coaches were excellent with Dusty, and I feel if Dusty had mailed it out to anyone else for the playoffs, we could have won in 2017.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #134 on: July 29, 2025, 04:42:30 pm »
Yes, they were talented, but arguably not as good as the Dodgers or Astros, whom we beat that year.

No arguably about it, the Nationals were definitely worse than those two teams. That Astros team was one of the most talented of all time by WAR IIRC. It's part of what made that run so magical was taking down the titans in the Dodgers and Astros.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #135 on: July 29, 2025, 05:29:37 pm »
Dusty made incredibly poor decisions in the postseason. It wasn't "bad luck."
I just remember the meltdown inning when Scherzer came in in relief. Catcher's interference and a bunch "wtf?" ways of getting on base when Baker actually made the right moves that just didn't work.

Offline varoadking

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #136 on: July 29, 2025, 07:24:14 pm »
I just remember the meltdown inning when Scherzer came in in relief. Catcher's interference and a bunch "wtf?" ways of getting on base when Baker actually made the right moves that just didn't work.

Don't forget Werth's stupid slide in left field...

I was at that game with my Son-In-Law...  The sense of total disbelief was matched just last year when the Redskins pulled the Hail Mary against Da Bears with 2 seconds left...  My SIL was with me at that game too...

Hmmmmmmmmm...

Online Slateman

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #137 on: July 29, 2025, 10:04:14 pm »
I just remember the meltdown inning when Scherzer came in in relief. Catcher's interference and a bunch "wtf?" ways of getting on base when Baker actually made the right moves that just didn't work.
Sammy Solis pitched meaningful playoff innings. That along was enough to fire Dusty on the spot.

Offline imref

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #138 on: July 31, 2025, 03:33:11 pm »
This is depressing. An article from 2016 talking about how the Nats were restocking with the signings of Garcia Jr. and Yasel Antuna to complement the next-generation core of Kieboom, Robles, and Soto.

https://www.minorleagueball.com/2018/3/29/17174488/2016-international-signings-could-break-out-for-washington

Antuna was quite the bust.

Online IanRubbish

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #139 on: August 02, 2025, 02:13:01 pm »
Now 29th in run differential at -117

28th in win percentage, but the White Sox have won 6 out of their last 10

Offline OfftheBat

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #140 on: August 02, 2025, 02:13:53 pm »
I've been sitting with the thought that I may have to follow at a distance until ownership changes. I went through Loria and I fear I can't do it again.

Are you from Montreal or Miami? 😭😭 I also went through Loria lol

Online welch

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #141 on: August 02, 2025, 03:39:28 pm »
I've been sitting with the thought that I may have to follow at a distance until ownership changes. I went through Loria and I fear I can't do it again.

I went through Calvin Griffith, a collection of people, then Bob Short, and now this Lerner crew.  At the same time, George Preston Marshall and Dan Snyder owned the Redskins, wrapped around the glorious Jack Kent Cooke. (Knew about Clark Griffith, who owned the team when I was little)

W hat do the Lerners gain from owning the Nats? Svrluga says that the Lerner family cannot agree on anything, but no one tells us if there are factions within the family, and, if so, what each wants.

Hopeless.

Offline imref

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #142 on: August 06, 2025, 10:37:25 am »
https://www.reddit.com/r/Nationals/comments/1mj5rn9/owner_hate_score_lerner_3/

Quote
In Craig Calcaterra's newsletter today (if you don't subscribe, you should!), he quoted an item (from an unnamed source) that claimed to have done an AI analysis on team subreddits to determine an "Owner Hate Score" for the 30 major league teams.

The Top 5 Most Hated:

John Fisher (Athletics): 92.24 score, 51% negative mentions, 26.17% anger rate
Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox): 73.83 score, 37.6% negative mentions
Mark Lerner (Nationals): 71.06 score, 3.45% joy rate (2nd lowest)
Paul Dolan (Guardians): 65.63 score, 19.39% anger rate

Offline NatsLSU

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #143 on: August 06, 2025, 11:02:38 am »
I went through Calvin Griffith, a collection of people, then Bob Short, and now this Lerner crew.  At the same time, George Preston Marshall and Dan Snyder owned the Redskins, wrapped around the glorious Jack Kent Cooke. (Knew about Clark Griffith, who owned the team when I was little)

W hat do the Lerners gain from owning the Nats? Svrluga says that the Lerner family cannot agree on anything, but no one tells us if there are factions within the family, and, if so, what each wants.

Hopeless.

It’s a real life Succession. These kids aren’t serious people. Absolute clown show.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #144 on: August 06, 2025, 11:02:48 am »

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #145 on: August 06, 2025, 11:09:04 am »
Even if you keep the Lerner ownership, the org needs to modernize. Even with a tight budget, they need to acquire pitching that can move the team out of the bottom 3 in K%-BB%, need to get some hitters to stop pounding the ball into the ground, shape their pitches, etc... If they want to keep a tight budget, then maybe even some of the money going to players should go to operations. On top of all this, they need discipline and help with the mental lapses.

Online IanRubbish

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #146 on: August 06, 2025, 04:24:24 pm »
Even if you keep the Lerner ownership, the org needs to modernize. Even with a tight budget, they need to acquire pitching that can move the team out of the bottom 3 in K%-BB%, need to get some hitters to stop pounding the ball into the ground, shape their pitches, etc... If they want to keep a tight budget, then maybe even some of the money going to players should go to operations. On top of all this, they need discipline and help with the mental lapses.

This is precisely the issue, the Lerners aren't setup to move from dysfunctional penny pinching into thoughtful frugality like the Rays or other low budget teams.   They don't invest in technology and baseball ops, they play the contract, don't hold people accountable until things get way out of hand, evaluate baseball executives based on non-baseball factors (like covering for them with PR), and allow people to stick around who reinforce the bureaucracy, but are inept.

This in turn leads to carelessness, bizarre lineup decisions, unmotivated players, and repeating failed strategies.

I don't see this changing as long as any of the Lerner kids are in charge.  They don't have it in them, and don't have the business experience, because they're just living in fear of how the family wealth will get divided as more heirs come into the picture.  At best there will be improvement around the edges, especially with ditching the pitcher's paradise approach to hitting the team has had since 2022, but overall this will be a mess until they're gone.

Offline imref

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #147 on: August 08, 2025, 10:38:39 am »
Svrulga's latest:

https://wapo.st/45iKpDP

Quote
These are unsettling times. DeBartolo has made clear that the way the Nats ran their baseball operations department needed fundamental change, but he can’t fully overhaul things unless and until he has been empowered for the long term. That’s TBD. What has become abundantly clear, though, in the weeks since Martinez and Rizzo were let go is that the club missed an opportunity to change the energy in the clubhouse.

Cairo, the former bench coach and Martinez crony, was the easy and convenient candidate to bump up. That was also a mistake. The right move: Bring in Matt LeCroy — a longtime loyal servant of the franchise and the manager at Class AAA Rochester — because LeCroy would have overhauled a vibe very much in need of overhauling. The Nats’ “Go 1-0 today” era should have walked out the door when Martinez was shown it. Cairo is trying to keep it going, even as these Nats turn it into “Go 0-1 today” so frequently.

Online welch

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #148 on: August 08, 2025, 06:58:48 pm »
Nussbaum's latest tells us that the Nats have been winning at a 30% rate for the last 56 games. DeBartolo said that the Nats are on pace to win 65 games? Not like this...

Online welch

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Re: Legion of Doom 2.0 for 2025
« Reply #149 on: August 10, 2025, 12:24:25 pm »
If Gore pitches like trash today, the Nats could have two usable starters, and can esily bump along at a 30% win rate.