Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Heads need to roll. June for the bottom 5 guys, not including tonight:
Bzrykcy - 12 IP, 3.75 ERA / 5.67 FIP, 4.5 BB/9, 3 HR (after tonight, the ERA is 6 and the HRs are 4)
Henry - 6.2 IP, 8.10 ERA / 12.08 FIP, 9.45 BB/9, 4 HR
Salazar - 9.2 IP, 5.59 ERA / 4.74 FIP, 6.52 BB/9, 2.17 WHIP, 1 HR
Loutos - 6 IP, 13.5 ERA / 6.75 FIP, 6 BB/9, 1 HR
Rutledge - 10 IP, 8.10 ERA / 9.68 FIP, 1.80 BB/9, 5 HR

Off of this, you can kind of see why Davey went to Brzykcy in the top of the 7th tonight. Henry needs to be given a hard look. IDK if his velo is off, but certainly his command is shot. Wouldn't surprise me if he needs to go to the IL.

[Slateman]

Salazar and Loutos don't belong in a major league bullpen. Not sure Rutledge does either.

My big thing is that none of the pitchers seem ready to start the game and the strategy for each pitcher seems poor.

Case in point, Trout homered off Bzrykcy on a low fastball. Trout's weakness, which has been very publicly notes, is high fastballs. At no point should he be given a fastball down and in. But he was.

It's not the first time I've noticed it. It was similar in the series against the Mets when they faced Alonso. Franny pointed it out and the next pitch was exactly where Alonso likes the ball.

[sixthree175]

Salazar and Loutos don't belong in a major league bullpen. Not sure Rutledge does either.

My big thing is that none of the pitchers seem ready to start the game and the strategy for each pitcher seems poor.

Case in point, Trout homered off Bzrykcy on a low fastball. Trout's weakness, which has been very publicly notes, is high fastballs. At no point should he be given a fastball down and in. But he was.
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It's not the first time I've noticed it. It was similar in the series against the Mets when they faced Alonso. Franny pointed it out and the next pitch was exactly where Alonso likes the ball.

Maybe the coaching staff told the younger relief pitchers not to "nibble", and that's the best they can do.

[aspenbubba]

Salazar and Loutos don't belong in a major league bullpen. Not sure Rutledge does either.

Didn’t I say that 5 days ago?

[Natsinpwc]

I know we are among the worst of the worst but it does seem to be a bad situation around the league.  Not enough competent relievers and starters going fewer and fewer innings each year. Seems to me they need to go to 27 roster to add another pitcher.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

As bad as Salazar is, he's been their 5th best reliever this month by most measures going into last night. After Finnegan, Lord,and Ferrer, there's Brzykcy then him. Henry's way off, and Loutos and Rutledge are unusable.

[nobleisthyname]

I know we are among the worst of the worst but it does seem to be a bad situation around the league.  Not enough competent relievers and starters going fewer and fewer innings each year. Seems to me they need to go to 27 roster to add another pitcher.

Increasing active roster size to include more pitchers would encourage even more reliever churn and shorter outings from starters, which most people are generally not in favor of. It's been seriously argued that we need to reduce the number of relievers a team can carry to address that issue. Definitely a tough situation all around with no easy answers.

[welch]

Go back to the two-inning relievers. Or even some relief pitchers -- part-time starters -- who can throw three innings. Of course, keep the dedicated one-inning closer and maybe another one-inning guy, but a team cannot afford a load of single-inning relievers. If starters are going five innings, and if a six-inning start is the modern equivalent of a complete game, then what??

And junk the three-batter minimum. Allow the Loogy back, since the length of a start will force teams to balance wasting a reliever.

Meanwhile: Salazar has never been much. Neither has Loutos. Put Trevor Williams in the pen. Maybe collect some failing starting pitchers and try them a relievers.

And the Mets just released Colin Poche. Story in MLBTR, which seems puzzled that Poche was good in Tampa, but failed with the Nats and the Muts.

Making room for Lovelady on the roster is Poche, who is not too far removed from substantial success as a member of the Rays organization himself. He posted a strong 3.27 ERA in 156 2/3 innings of work for Tampa during the 2022-24 seasons, though he posted pedestrian peripherals in two of those three years. His 2023 was utterly dominant, as he posted a sterling 2.23 ERA with a 24.8% strikeout rate and a barrel rate of just 5.6%, though he did walk opponents at an elevated 9.8% clip. Those peripherals regressed last year, however, and the Rays non-tendered him over the offseason as a result.

Since being non-tendered, Poche has signed with both the Nationals and the Mets but has struggled badly with both teams. Poche made 13 appearances in D.C. but left the nation’s capital with 12 runs (11 earned) allowed in just 8 2/3 innings that saw him walk (12) as many batters as he struck out (10). His stay with the Mets was much briefer, as he made just one appearance and surrendered two runs in two-thirds of an inning of work while walking two and striking out one. The Mets will now have one week to either work out a trade involving Poche or pass him through waivers, at which point he would have the option to either accept an outright assignment to the minors or elect free agency. Perhaps Poche’s past success with the Rays will keep getting him attention from big league clubs despite his deep struggles with his command this year, but it seems likely he’ll remain limited to minor league deals until he can turn things around.

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

[Slateman]

Go back to the two-inning relievers. Or even some relief pitchers -- part-time starters -- who can throw three innings. Of course, keep the dedicated one-inning closer and maybe another one-inning guy, but a team cannot afford a load of single-inning relievers. If starters are going five innings, and if a six-inning start is the modern equivalent of a complete game, then what??

This doesn't help anything. Rutledge, Lord, Henry, and Salazar are all multi-inning guys. Outside of Lord, they all suck and can't get enough outs.

We simply lack talent, largely because ownership won't spend on pitching

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Each of the bottom 5 relievers has a negative fWAR this month. That means they all are below replacement level performance. Only 3 relievvers have ERAs below 6 in June: Lord 1.04, Finnegan 3.68, and Ferrer 5.11.

[Natsinpwc]

Increasing active roster size to include more pitchers would encourage even more reliever churn and shorter outings from starters, which most people are generally not in favor of. It's been seriously argued that we need to reduce the number of relievers a team can carry to address that issue. Definitely a tough situation all around with no easy answers.

There is absolutely no chance the players union will allow the roster size to shrink.  I think adding one more reliever would help. The good starters will still go six innings.  You have one more rested guy each night with an additional reliever.  Getting rid of the three batter rule would probably help also.  It’s not really needed with the pitch clock.

[IanRubbish]

This doesn't help anything. Rutledge, Lord, Henry, and Salazar are all multi-inning guys. Outside of Lord, they all suck and can't get enough outs.

We simply lack talent, largely because ownership won't spend on pitching

It's more than spending.  The Giants spent less on their bullpen than the Nats did and have the 2nd best reliever ERA in MLB.  There's a culture of carelessness in the org that spending alone can't fix.  The bullpen not only has the worst K/BB and is 29th in P/IP, it's got a big lead in hit batters, seven more than the A's.  When ownership treats six straight years under .450 nonchalantly, and doesn't hold the GM or manager accountable, and then lets that manager hire and retain personal friends as coaches, you get a dysfunctional bureaucracy where politicking and personality matter far more than performance.  Switching in and out a few arms won't make much difference at this point, other than preventing a 6 ERA from going back to 7. 

[Slateman]

It's more than spending.  The Giants spent less on their bullpen than the Nats did and have the 2nd best reliever ERA in MLB.  There's a culture of carelessness in the org that spending alone can't fix.  The bullpen not only has the worst K/BB and is 29th in P/IP, it's got a big lead in hit batters, seven more than the A's.  When ownership treats six straight years under .450 nonchalantly, and doesn't hold the GM or manager accountable, and then lets that manager hire and retain personal friends as coaches, you get a dysfunctional bureaucracy where politicking and personality matter far more than performance.  Switching in and out a few arms won't make much difference at this point, other than preventing a 6 ERA from going back to 7. 

Giants spent almost as much on their rotation as our active roster.

This is 100% about spending.  Also, the Giants currently "culture" just got there. This is Posey's first year and the second for his manager. Bullpen was middle of the pack last year and the year before that, under the old regime.

What changed? Getting to sign Verlander and add Robbie Ray. See when you spend on good free agents, you can move tweeners like Irvin, Williams, and Parker into relievers. When you spend on free agents, you don't have to trade your 2.78 ERA lefty reliever for a first baseman

So yea, spending freaking matters.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Will add that the friends of Davey had a very good bullpen before the deadline last season, so I don’t think it's so much cronyism as the talent they're coaching. The Poche signing was very much like the Floro signing. Law had a better track record than Sims before signing, and Harvey was still OK. Garcia was on board. The talent was just better. To me, it's on Rizzo

[imref]

Mason Thompson got lit up again today.

[IanRubbish]

Giants spent almost as much on their rotation as our active roster.

This is 100% about spending.  Also, the Giants currently "culture" just got there. This is Posey's first year and the second for his manager. Bullpen was middle of the pack last year and the year before that, under the old regime.

What changed? Getting to sign Verlander and add Robbie Ray. See when you spend on good free agents, you can move tweeners like Irvin, Williams, and Parker into relievers. When you spend on free agents, you don't have to trade your 2.78 ERA lefty reliever for a first baseman

So yea, spending freaking matters.

The Giants have been a well run org since the late 90s, long before Buster showed up.  They've been a class act since Sabean showed up and the new park opened.  Even Kapler won 107.  When they had rough seasons in '17 and '18, no one was insulting fans with BS PR, or saying "hey, we won three World Series a few years back" the way Rizzo keeps trying to tell fans about '19 when the team has been a train wreck ever since. 

Spending cannot fix the culture of carelessness that exists in the Nats org.   

[IanRubbish]

Will add that the friends of Davey had a very good bullpen before the deadline last season, so I don’t think it's so much cronyism as the talent they're coaching. The Poche signing was very much like the Floro signing. Law had a better track record than Sims before signing, and Harvey was still OK. Garcia was on board. The talent was just better. To me, it's on Rizzo

The '22 team that had the worst starter ERA in the league had an almost league avg pen in part because they were coming in low pressure situations.  Bullpens are subject to overuse, mismanagement, pressure situations, etc.  Yes, Rizzo is clueless with them, but problems like high P/IP and hit batters aren't addressed by any of the field staff.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Honest question: what was the p/ip last year? I didn't think the bbs were as bad, either. As for leverage, 2024 was 35-36 and we were talking adding for a wild card run if they kept that pace. Better starters too. It wasn't low leverage

[Slateman]

The Giants have been a well run org since the late 90s, long before Buster showed up.  They've been a class act since Sabean showed up and the new park opened.  Even Kapler won 107.  When they had rough seasons in '17 and '18, no one was insulting fans with BS PR, or saying "hey, we won three World Series a few years back" the way Rizzo keeps trying to tell fans about '19 when the team has been a train wreck ever since. 

Spending cannot fix the culture of carelessness that exists in the Nats org.   

So well run they fired their GM

[nobleisthyname]

There is absolutely no chance the players union will allow the roster size to shrink.  I think adding one more reliever would help. The good starters will still go six innings.  You have one more rested guy each night with an additional reliever.  Getting rid of the three batter rule would probably help also.  It’s not really needed with the pitch clock.

I don't think the idea is for the roster size to shrink but rather restrict the number of spots that can be used on pitchers.

[Natsinpwc]

I don't think the idea is for the roster size to shrink but rather restrict the number of spots that can be used on pitchers.

Ok.  But why? If guys are going to pick fewer innings you need more. Not less.

[IanRubbish]

So well run they fired their GM

That's what good organizations do.  This train wreck keeps a massively inept GM in spite of his horrendous performance.

[nobleisthyname]

Ok.  But why? If guys are going to pick fewer innings you need more. Not less.

Right, the idea is to force them not to pitch fewer innings.

To be clear, I don't think this idea is anywhere close to actually being put into reality, but it's fair to point out that more pitchers means fewer innings per pitcher, which is something most people are opposed to in terms of viewing experience.

[welch]

Chafin back. Loutos gone. And Mason Thompson pitch an out today for Rochester.

[Slateman]

Chafin back. Loutos gone. And Mason Thompson pitch an out today for Rochester.

It was Thompson's second appearance in Triple A. Yesterday, he went 1 inning, gave up 2 hits, 1 walk, and struck out 3