Author Topic: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover  (Read 8206 times)

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Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #200 on: May 06, 2025, 06:35:24 pm »
Is that Lopez's 4th blown save win in the past 2 weeks?

Offline aspenbubba

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #201 on: May 06, 2025, 10:24:55 pm »
Sims Salazar should be DFA’ed tonite. Ferrer to AA.

Offline IanRubbish

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #202 on: May 07, 2025, 02:06:18 am »
This is more than personnel, and sending guys up/down to Rochester.  Bullpen isn't just last in ERA, it surpasses the rest of MLB in BB/9, P/IP and plunking batters.  This is poor coaching.  Hickey is Davey's friend, and is a useless fool who makes way too many mound visits that usually end up with the wheels coming off, and who thinks staying in the zone consistently is just "analytics stuff".  As long as the org refuses to address this, we'll continue to get excited when they go 4 innings in a row without giving up an earned run, only to blow up the next day.  This is fixable, but the solution depends on changing org politics, so unfortunately isn't likely to happen.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #203 on: May 07, 2025, 08:27:20 am »
Is that Lopez's 4th blown save win in the past 2 weeks?
edit - it was his 3rd win after a blown save, 2 by himself and one that Finnegan blew, all in the past 2 weeks.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #204 on: May 07, 2025, 09:22:57 am »
So it seems Lord is coming back to the bullpen just as they finished stretching him out.

Honestly seems like the worst option for both his own development and the long-term success of the team. It should be Williams going to the pen.

Offline aspenbubba

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #205 on: May 07, 2025, 10:12:44 am »
So it seems Lord is coming back to the bullpen just as they finished stretching him out.

Honestly seems like the worst option for both his own development and the long-term success of the team. It should be Williams going to the pen.

preach that Brother!!

Offline Slateman

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #206 on: May 07, 2025, 11:15:21 am »
This is more than personnel, and sending guys up/down to Rochester.  Bullpen isn't just last in ERA, it surpasses the rest of MLB in BB/9, P/IP and plunking batters.  This is poor coaching.  Hickey is Davey's friend, and is a useless fool who makes way too many mound visits that usually end up with the wheels coming off, and who thinks staying in the zone consistently is just "analytics stuff".  As long as the org refuses to address this, we'll continue to get excited when they go 4 innings in a row without giving up an earned run, only to blow up the next day.  This is fixable, but the solution depends on changing org politics, so unfortunately isn't likely to happen.

This is ... poor analysis, at best and is pretty encumbered by emotion and bias.

First off, Hickey became the pitching coach in 2021. From 2021 through 2024, the Nationals' bullpen was 14th in BB/9. Not bad, but certainly not good. It was 17th in HBP over the same time period. In 2024, the Nats bullpen was 18th in P/IP. 2023 they were 10th. 2022, they were 13th. 2021, 1st. 12th in 2020. And 2nd in 2019. The issues you are bringing up are much more prevalent this year compared to previous years, both during Hickey's tenure and before it.

This seems much more related to the personnel we have in the bullpen. Last year, before the deadline, we had a healthy Harvey, Dylan Floro having a bounceback campaign, Finnegan having an all start season, and Derek Law being beast in the pen. In the first half of 2024, the Nationals bullpen had the 7th best BB/9 rate and was tied with Boston for the 3rd fewest HBP. I can't find a way to split out P/IP to get reliever specific numbers, but overall, Nats pitching, overall, was 14th in P/IP in the first half of 2024.

The talent disparity in the bullpen cannot be ignored. The 2024 bullpen had all star Kyle Finnegan, Hunter Harvey having a good season, Dylan Floro posting a 2.06 ERA, and Derek Law was a beast. Robert Garcia, while he had a high ERA, didn't seem to have control issues. Only Finnegan had a BB/9 over 3. Contrast that with this season's "core" bullpen that includes Jorge Lopez (who is actually having a his best control in several seasons), Lucas Sims (who has always had control issues), and Poche (who imploded this season). We're talking about a dramatic drop off in talent and ability from one season to the next. On top of that, we have a several young/developing pitchers in our current pen. Jackson Rutledge has never been particularly adept at throwing strikes (hence why is a reliever). Cole Henry is pitching post-TOC, which brings a wealth of issues and concerns. Then you have Ribalta and Bryzkcy who are getting their first real tastes of MLB pitching, so this is a learning experience for them.

Now, I think Hickey and the coaching staff deserve some blame. Ferrer is regressing and no one can explain why. Poche looked awful when, historically, he's been pretty okay. I'm not particularly impressed with Salazar, and somehow Sims is even worse than before he got here. Then again, outside of Ferrer, none of these guys were particularly sought after in the offseason and were very cheap.

I think it's pretty unfair to lay this solely at the feet of Hickey. And unless you have some sort of definitive proof that Hickey thinks "staying in the zone consistently" is just "analytics stuff," then I'm inclined to dismiss your characterization as simply your own bias. I defy you to find a pitching coach that doesn't preach filling up the zone with strikes. If anything, "just throw strikes" and "fill up the zone" would be the opposite of analytics, which would preach location in combination with pitch spin and shape.

I think it's more apt to lay majority of the blame for this bullpen on Mike Rizzo and ownership. This team has struggled to develop pitching in the past. Some of that has gotten better, but it's pretty clear that it's not great right now. It's also pretty clear that Rizzo did not have a particularly large budget this offseason, and had to buy the bounceback candidates, which are performing poorly. Then you couple that with injuries to Law and Ribalta, combined with young relievers looking to develop at the MLB level, and we have a perfect storm for a terrible bullpen. And I just don't think it's particularly justified to say that the problem is simply poor coaching. No matter how great your coaches are, they are dependent on their system to produce major league talent. That simply isn't happening here in DC. At least not where the bullpen is concerned.



Offline imref

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #207 on: May 07, 2025, 12:56:27 pm »
i'd recommend listening to Doolittle's interview on the first episode of The 11th inning podcast with Kolko and Zimmerman. He goes a bit into what it's like to work with Hickey and how Hickey has always been very into analytics and data. He specifically mentioned that Hickey was known as a data guy when he came over from Tampa.

Offline IanRubbish

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #208 on: May 07, 2025, 01:34:02 pm »
i'd recommend listening to Doolittle's interview on the first episode of The 11th inning podcast with Kolko and Zimmerman. He goes a bit into what it's like to work with Hickey and how Hickey has always been very into analytics and data. He specifically mentioned that Hickey was known as a data guy when he came over from Tampa.

Doolittle saved Hickey.  Since he got there in '21, the Nats have been near the worst in P/IP every season, along with high BB/9 rates.  The bullpen has been near the bottom in ERA as well, including ranking 27th of 30 in 2023 before Doolittle showed up.  I don't blame Hickey for play-the-contract, nor the fact that is not an innovative or creative org, or that Rizzo sees the bullpen as a source for deadline trade pieces.  But this team is hitting better in spite of bizarre lineups, and this is not the guy to fix a wild, inefficient bullpen.


"Hickey, who coached for the Tampa Bay Rays and Chicago Cubs, was hired in 2021 alongside Coles. Jim was a part of the Tampa Bay "pitching lab" that seemingly reincarnated pitchers that lost their way, although that started to ramp up after Hickey departed Tampa Bay. Hickey was hired by Mike Rizzo to replicate that success in Washington after a couple of seasons out of baseball. The Nats ranked 24th in team ERA in 2021, 29th in 2022, and 27th in 2023, according to ESPN.com. The pitching staff has been among the worst in baseball since Hickey was hired in 2021. The bullpen did not live up to expectations in 2023, starting pitching has been a problem for years in Washington, and Patrick Corbin has been one of the worst pitchers in baseball for almost three seasons. Safe to say the results have not been pretty for Hickey."

https://districtondeck.com/posts/nationals-coaching-carousel-darnell-coles-and-jim-hickey-to-return-in-2024-01hcx0e3rkhx

also
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/11/16/nationals-hickey-changeups/



Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #210 on: May 07, 2025, 10:27:51 pm »
Finally something to root for!

Offline imref

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #211 on: May 09, 2025, 05:37:45 pm »
Davey says he wants Lord to pitch the 6th and 7th in high leverage situations

Online varoadking

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #212 on: May 09, 2025, 09:42:47 pm »
Davey says he wants Lord to pitch the 6th and 7th in high leverage situations

Wouldn't that require that they find themselves in a high leverage situation?

Offline RobDibblesGhost

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #213 on: May 09, 2025, 10:30:18 pm »
Sims has been released. Thank goodness.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #214 on: May 10, 2025, 07:37:55 am »
Sims has been released. Thank goodness.

Today is his birthday too.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #215 on: May 10, 2025, 07:44:00 am »
Sims also cost as much ($3M) as the Nats saved by non-tendering and then re-signing Finnegan (would have gotten ~$9M in arb, re-signed for $6M).

Definitely not the best use of resources when working on such a constrained budget.

Offline imref

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #216 on: May 10, 2025, 08:49:17 am »
Sims also cost as much ($3M) as the Nats saved by non-tendering and then re-signing Finnegan (would have gotten ~$9M in arb, re-signed for $6M).

Definitely not the best use of resources when working on such a constrained budget.
Sims was very good with the Reds last year, which resulted in them being able to trade him to Boston for a prospect, then the wheels fell off. For $3M he was a cheap flip-candidate that didn't work out.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #217 on: May 10, 2025, 09:56:39 am »
Sims was very good with the Reds last year, which resulted in them being able to trade him to Boston for a prospect, then the wheels fell off. For $3M he was a cheap flip-candidate that didn't work out.

Sims had a 3.57 ERA with the Reds last season to go with a 4.89 FIP. Then he was traded to the Red Sox and was terrible bringing his overall season numbers down to a 4.38 ERA/5.23 FIP. His career numbers are 4.86 ERA/4.64 FIP.

He's had a couple of seasons where he had a decent ERA, but he's never had good underlying metrics at any point in his career.

Compare his track record to that of say Danny Coulombe, who signed with the Twins around the same time as the Nats signed Sims and for the exact same amount of money. Granted, maybe Coulombe didn't want to be a Nat but this felt like a very predictable outcome, if not to this extreme.

Online varoadking

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #218 on: May 10, 2025, 04:24:50 pm »
Sims had a 3.57 ERA with the Reds last season to go with a 4.89 FIP. Then he was traded to the Red Sox and was terrible bringing his overall season numbers down to a 4.38 ERA/5.23 FIP. His career numbers are 4.86 ERA/4.64 FIP.

He's had a couple of seasons where he had a decent ERA, but he's never had good underlying metrics at any point in his career.

Compare his track record to that of say Danny Coulombe, who signed with the Twins around the same time as the Nats signed Sims and for the exact same amount of money. Granted, maybe Coulombe didn't want to be a Nat but this felt like a very predictable outcome, if not to this extreme.

Pretty much anything this organization does seems to fit this description...

Offline imref

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #219 on: May 14, 2025, 10:16:22 pm »
Finally a solid outing.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #220 on: May 16, 2025, 10:11:42 am »
Williams has reverted to severe righty/left splits. Lefty OPS 1.060, righty .493. That can work in the bullpen.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2025/05/15/nationals-braves-trevor-williams/

Offline IanRubbish

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #221 on: May 16, 2025, 10:24:21 am »
Williams has reverted to severe righty/left splits. Lefty OPS 1.060, righty .493. That can work in the bullpen.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2025/05/15/nationals-braves-trevor-williams/

There are 14 million reasons why they won't move him to the bullpen.

Offline imref

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #222 on: Yesterday at 05:11:32 am »
5.1 scoreless last night.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Bullpen in 2025: duck and cover
« Reply #223 on: Yesterday at 08:54:36 am »
5.1 scoreless last night.
you mean no earned runs. There was the near fiasco with Rutledge and Tena in the 6th