Author Topic: Reminiscing about 2019  (Read 3848 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bluestreak

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11275
Reminiscing about 2019
« Topic Start: September 01, 2023, 04:29:24 PM »
So I had a cross country flight and decided to download Game 7 of the 2019 World Series. I watched in the stadium so never got to see/hear the broadcast.  A few thoughts:

1) Hinch was an idiot for pulling Greinke.
2) Ball 3 call in the Soto at bay was egregious
3) i still do not understand Howie kept that ball fair. Harris threw a good pitch. Given the context, that might be the best piece of hitting we have ever seen.
4) would you trade The Corbin contract for those 3 innings would you still do it? I would…

Offline Senatorswin

  • Posts: 2913
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #1: September 01, 2023, 04:49:56 PM »
I think the biggest mistake Houston made was not bringing Gerrit Cole in relief to finish the game.

I would not do anything to change anything in the game 7 world series 2019.

Offline bluestreak

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11275
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #2: September 01, 2023, 05:44:29 PM »
I think the biggest mistake Houston made was not bringing Gerrit Cole in relief to finish the game.

I would not do anything to change anything in the game 7 world series 2019.

The problem is was that Greinke was absolutely dealing. One hitter. On a low pitch count. They wanted Cole to come in on a clean inning. If Greinke had finished the 7th, I’m pretty sure Cole does the 8th and 9th. The game just turned too quickly to react.

Offline Five Banners

  • Posts: 2406
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #3: September 01, 2023, 06:09:11 PM »
<——— This breakdown of balls and strikes is from the same World Series, which it seems should’ve been the focus of corrective action afterwards before the Asterisk matter snatched the headlines.

I remember hearing the pitching coach for them supposedly having a screensaver of the pitch that looked like the low strike to Soto (wonder if he had to compress any of the “dark arts“ and “Codebreaker“ material that supposedly was floating around down there). Given that IIRC it was presented as if that could have been the big game-changer, one might wonder why he didn’t memorialize outside pitches to Eaton, especially the strike two pitch that same half inning? Plus, Soto didn’t walk on that pitch, which seems to work against calls supposedly tilted that inning that made the difference – – as if the Asterisks involved in what they did could ever presume to stand on moral high ground.

Also, Howie’s breakdown of it from the World Series video seemed to nail it. Finally, baseball seems even more like a roulette spin with the expanded playoffs than ever. You take the first one – – technically, the second in 95 years – – and you run. It’s one guy on one contract. I wanted them to keep Harper and thought the deal he eventually signed was doable, but don’t even know that they were looking at a signing bonus structuring approach for cap relief as opposed to the Max type deferrals. Who knows if they’d made a deal if it would’ve paid off as far as a title, especially with what happened with the roster after 2019. At least there’s a World Series-clinching win to look at.


Offline Five Banners

  • Posts: 2406
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #4: September 03, 2023, 05:14:55 PM »
Four years ago this evening:


Offline Senatorswin

  • Posts: 2913
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #5: September 03, 2023, 07:37:09 PM »
Thanks for the comeback on the Mets video. That was fun. The good old days.

Online HondoKillebrew

  • Posts: 870
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #6: September 03, 2023, 08:17:00 PM »
Four years ago this evening:



Great memory. Seems like it can’t have been that long ago but also so much has happened in the world, nation, MLB, and Nats since then.

Offline OfftheBat

  • Posts: 343
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #7: September 04, 2023, 11:53:48 AM »
Four years ago this evening:




Unbelievable, that 2019 team was STACKED.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

  • Posts: 16294
  • pissy DC sports fan
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #8: September 04, 2023, 03:11:18 PM »
Quote
1) Hinch was an idiot for pulling Greinke.

This remains one of the most baffling decisions I've ever seen.  He was carving up our hitters, and he was only sitting at 80 pitches.

Thank goodness Hinch did it, but I still don't understand it and probably never will.

Offline NatsAllThe Way

  • Posts: 14534
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #9: September 04, 2023, 05:19:04 PM »
It probably kept him up at night for a while. 

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

  • Posts: 17865
  • babble on
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #10: September 04, 2023, 07:04:16 PM »
No
4) would you trade The Corbin contract for those 3 innings would you still do it? I would…

Offline bluestreak

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 11275
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #11: September 04, 2023, 09:43:51 PM »
This remains one of the most baffling decisions I've ever seen.  He was carving up our hitters, and he was only sitting at 80 pitches.

Thank goodness Hinch did it, but I still don't understand it and probably never will.

He was on 80 pitches and was dominant. You don’t sit a guy because he gave up a home run to 2019 Anthony Rendon, who was absolutely otherworldly. And the walk he gave to Soto was based on a suspect call.

I think he had no confidence in Greinke and was going to pull him at first opportunity. So he could bring in Cole in the next inning. Too cute by half.

But you’re right, it’s one of the most idiotic managerial decisions I’ve ever seen.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 44086
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #12: September 05, 2023, 08:59:18 AM »
IIRC, Greinke was strictly limited on innings that year, or at least down the stretch. He was looking for an excuse to pull him. Smith was lights out in relief that year. Even the pitch Howie hit was absurdly good, which made the homer more amazing. The idea was Smith to bail Greinke out after he had been pushed further than he had been by bringing in the relief ace, then have Cole start a clean inning to cruise home.

Offline nobleisthyname

  • Posts: 3734
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #13: September 05, 2023, 10:25:00 PM »
IIRC, Greinke was strictly limited on innings that year, or at least down the stretch. He was looking for an excuse to pull him. Smith was lights out in relief that year. Even the pitch Howie hit was absurdly good, which made the homer more amazing. The idea was Smith to bail Greinke out after he had been pushed further than he had been by bringing in the relief ace, then have Cole start a clean inning to cruise home.

Harris  ;)

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 44086
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #14: September 06, 2023, 09:04:06 AM »

Offline Five Banners

  • Posts: 2406
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #15: September 06, 2023, 11:29:45 AM »
IIRC, Greinke was strictly limited on innings that year, or at least down the stretch. He was looking for an excuse to pull him. Harriss was lights out in relief that year. Even the pitch Howie hit was absurdly good, which made the homer more amazing. The idea was Harris to bail Greinke out after he had been pushed further than he had been by bringing in the relief ace, then have Cole start a clean inning to cruise home.

Pardon the SABR-length response:

Grienke was a 36 year old starter who was pitching in his fifth postseason game that season. He had been up and down, and both the Rays and the Yankees had gotten to him. In game three, the Nats made him work, as he threw 95 pitches in 4 2/3 innings, with Josh James getting the win as one of five pitchers that followed.

One might recall how heavily the Asterisks relied on analytics, as well as having the concept of scripts essentially following that and potentially overruling the manager and pitching coach’s gut. However, Grienke was at such a low pitch count late in the game with a two-run lead that all of the aforementioned factors seemed to make it reasonable on all fronts that he would still be there in the seventh, though it may have been pushing it on the analytics front because of other considerations.

As for me, I was hopeful with whoever they were putting in at the time that this particular group of Nats could get something done the third time through the lineup. We had seen Grienke look vulnerable in the playoffs, and it was getting late. We’d seen the Nats finally breakthrough late against Harris the night before and had seen how much he had been used.

As mentioned, this was also a postseason in which Will Harris had looked close to untouchable up until the night before. Because of the frequency of use, I seem to recall that Hinch had made comments that seem to essentially rule out Harris for game seven versus other options.


We’d also seen that Cole should not have been viewed as invincible as say a mid-late 90s Rivera would have coming in as early as the seventh or eighth – – something that appears to have been borne out in subsequent playoff appearances. Cole had been slightly more susceptible to the long ball issue than Scherzer that season. He had reportedly never made a relief appearance in the majors, and he pitched five times with an average of 110 pitches per start, including 110 in Game 5 three days earlier (where the one run against him was a home run by Soto in the seventh-inning).

Smoltz seemed to cover the presumed logic at the time of what was going on both before and after Rendon and Kendrick did their thing. Grienke had looked so dominant and had such a low pitch count with the two run lead, and they still had a mix of starters and relievers available if Grienke ran into any sign of trouble. IIRC, it was noted that they likely would’ve moved on in the script, but like in 2017’s World Series Game 7, Smoltz noted Hinch going with what he was seeing rather than solely sticking to a script.

However, Rendon’s home run and the Soto walk made problematic what had been discussed before about wanting Cole to come in at the top of a clean inning. Thus, with the tying run on base and the go-ahead run at the plate, Hinch was looking at somebody who was no longer in world beater mode and may have been bringing to mind some of his other performances that playoffs.


Combine that with the reported predilection to just go with the analytics, and a change came. Even though Cole was down in the bullpen in the fifth inning, he reportedly wasn’t warmed up or warming up in the seventh:

https://www.mlb.com/news/aj-hinch-gerrit-cole-game-7-lack-usage

“Cole, who started and won Game 5 on Sunday in Washington, went to the bullpen in the fifth inning of Game 7 against the Nationals and began playing catch. Hinch said Cole was just getting loose on his own and wasn’t warming up to come into the game. The two had talked earlier on Wednesday and come up with a plan in which Cole was going to pitch.

“”There was some nervous energy, and he wanted to see where he was,” Hinch said.

“Hinch said Cole wasn’t going to enter the game in the middle of an inning, nor was he going to pitch unless the Astros had the lead. Hinch pulled starter Zack Greinke after he allowed a homer to Anthony Rendon and issued a walk with one out in the seventh. Reliever Will Harris promptly gave up a two-run homer to Howie Kendrick that put Washington ahead for good, 3-2.

“”He had never pitched in relief, he had never pitched on two days of rest,” Hinch said. “I wanted to be very fair to him and make sure that not only was he able to do it, but he was good.””


With Cole ruled off the table for that moment, they had Osuna who had gotten tagged big-time against the Red Sox in 2018 and who had given up some runs to both Tampa Bay and New York in his previous eight appearances in 2019’s postseason. Most of the rest of the options didn’t have a huge body of work in the postseason (and vet Verlander had been gotten to late the night before).

Thus, even with what had reportedly been said about not wanting to have to use Harris, his only postseason blemish was the night before against the hitter that had already batted that inning (and with Soto just having walked). With Eaton having made the first out of the inning, all they conceivably needed was a double play ball against Kendrick, and they were onto the eighth and could put in Cole – – against whom I still think these particular Nats could’ve made a comeback down just one run, though the number of outs to do so was dwindling.


All of this is to say that as much as people have made it about the pitching decisions, not only don’t I think that what Hinch did was simply a matter of incompetence, but it may diminish the reality that this particular team seemed to have it within to respond to just about any situation.

Look at how they put up five runs against someone largely considered by some as Mr. unstoppable in game 1. Look at game 2 and the late-inning explosion after a close game where different pitching decisions could’ve been made when a Hall of Fame starter did stay in and gave up four earned runs (followed by defensive miscues from someone in particular as the pressure shifted).

Look at the offensive explosions of game 6 and also not getting rattled with that whole ump basepath matter but ended up expanding the lead. This team when the DH was available to it averaged 7.5 runs against the Asterisks. All of what had occurred with that lineup was looming in the seventh-inning, as well as the comebacks against the Brewers and Dodgers that the opposition had to throw into their bag of analytics as well as their guts.

Offline Five Banners

  • Posts: 2406
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #16: October 15, 2023, 03:48:25 PM »
On another October 15th:


Offline Count Walewski

  • Posts: 2777
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #17: October 15, 2023, 07:44:44 PM »
I attended Game 3 of the NLCS and that was a year from yesterday. I liveblogged the game on Facebook so a lot of memories came back yesterday. I completely forgot that in my section, the guy in front of me smuggled a trumpet into the stadium and was playing the "charge!" sequence at key moments.

Offline Five Banners

  • Posts: 2406
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #18: October 23, 2023, 11:02:26 PM »
Here was a Scherzer start in Houston, 2019 World Series Game 1:


Offline Five Banners

  • Posts: 2406
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #19: October 24, 2023, 03:14:17 PM »
Last night’s score somewhat resembles another October 23rd:


Offline imref

  • Posts: 46041
  • Re-contending in 202...5?
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #20: October 30, 2023, 07:24:58 AM »
Happy anniversary!!

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 44086
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #21: October 30, 2023, 09:12:28 AM »
Happy anniversary!!
:woop:

Just a warning: don't try celebrating by banging your head against a metal pole trying to duplicate the sound.

Offline Five Banners

  • Posts: 2406
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #22: October 30, 2023, 10:51:33 AM »
But before that:


Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 44086
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #23: October 30, 2023, 12:49:21 PM »
Whatever happened after he left here, it's hard to overstate how important Rendon was to that lineup. I was a strong member of the Extend Rendon contingent. I thought he was the most valuable of the 3 decisions of 2018-19 - Harper, Strasburg, and Rendon.

Offline imref

  • Posts: 46041
  • Re-contending in 202...5?
Re: Reminiscing about 2019
« Reply #24: October 30, 2023, 01:06:30 PM »
Whatever happened after he left here, it's hard to overstate how important Rendon was to that lineup. I was a strong member of the Extend Rendon contingent. I thought he was the most valuable of the 3 decisions of 2018-19 - Harper, Strasburg, and Rendon.

you weren't alone in that thought, though at the time there was a decent amount of confidence that Kieboom could at least be an acceptable fallback option.