Author Topic: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?  (Read 9172 times)

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Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #25: December 12, 2023, 10:43:38 AM »
This would probably be a great development for a significant part of the fan base. From my perspective (as a city resident who does not own a car) this is absolutely awful, but I can't say I'm all that surprised.  I'd probably go from 16 years full STH to (maybe) one game a year to see the Torpedo Factory Protuberances take on the Canucks. 

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #26: December 12, 2023, 11:03:27 AM »
I don’t know the area. How is traffic?  How far away is Metro?  The best thing about the current arena is having it right over a metro station.

Traffic isn't bad now, but it would be. Rt 1 is really the only way in unless people cut through national coming off the GW

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #27: December 12, 2023, 12:27:03 PM »
I don’t know the area. How is traffic?  How far away is Metro?  The best thing about the current arena is having it right over a metro station.

Traffic is often a bad joke, amplified by the fact that unlike old town where they have three lanes heading each way on route one, they never expanded it beyond two lanes through this stretch, despite having so much land available.

When this proposal came forward and they were talking about Arlington, there seem to be existing buildings and some space such as where they had initially talked about putting the Ballpark that did seem available for redevelopment and also would’ve had a lot more direct access to 395 and thus have adequate road and metro access (as well as supplemental parking at the Pentagon parking lots and the multimodal transportation hub there).

When they instead started talking about Potomac yards, the only differentiating factor seem to be the crew in the city Council and their reported predilection to rubberstamp projects, because it certainly does not seem to make sense as far as traffic, Ingress, and egress. One of the reasons Potomac yards didn’t get off the ground for the Redskins stadium is because you basically only have route one right there along with an already overwhelmed old town grid to the south and the GW Parkway that already backs up at rush-hour due to traffic heading into the city for evening events.

Plus, the closest way you can really get to and from the GW Parkway to the north is cutting through the airport, which does not lend itself to getting in and out from an arena event easily. To the west, you have the Del Ray neighborhood with no room for road expansion. To the north, you have more stretches of traffic-choked route one how’s your choice getting you back on to 395. Again, going south, you have to cut through old town which already snarls if you don’t want to take 395 and you want to get directly to 495.

At least some of the spots in Arlington had multiple entrances to the metro stops there (which even so only has the blue and the yellow as opposed to much better regional ingress and egress a gallery place). Here, there is what some might call a cut rate design of a shoehorned-in Metro stop the subject of much controversy over the years.

One thing that was never, ever discussed or envisioned if I recall was the possibility of its serving this type of continued capacity, rather than almost being a sop to the bedroom community that sprouted up along it (which came initially with a special Metro stop assessed tax that ended up looking like a political football).

If you’re going to put it in Virginia but try to make it more or less in the same region and still labeled as Washington teams, it would seem to make much more sense to put it in Arlington. If that’s not the driving force, they could put it anywhere in Northern Virginia that has parking first and Metro access second since you’re mainly marketing to the suburban community and could try to enhance and futureproof the fan base that way.

The main rationale as I see it of putting it in a place that already got shut down involving the Redskins at the top of their popularity, especially because logistical issues do not seem to have markedly improved since then, is the city manager-run local government with at large city council representation with the mayor that announced he’s not running for reelection and did so in the sweet spot between passing a widely criticized, wide ranging zoning change and this announcement.

Plus, in the meantime, Leonsis can use it as leverage against DC to come up with an acceptable deal to him.

Offline nfotiu

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #28: December 12, 2023, 12:35:31 PM »
I always felt pretty good that my state taxes weren't directly subsidizing pro sports teams.   This would be an annoying development in that aspect, especially since whatever benefits there are would be just a tiny portion of the state.

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #29: December 12, 2023, 01:20:55 PM »
Here’s something that also seems relevant for this as well as for Nats park:

https://wjla.com/news/local/proposed-metro-budged-includes-bus-rail-cuts-to-address-750-million-deficit-shortfall-business-economy-dmv-transportation-dc-maryland-virginia-jobs-funding-commuters-train-stations#

“Metro General Manager Randy Clarke released a proposed budget Tuesday morning that includes large cuts to bus, rail and MetroAccess, as well as job cuts and no salary increases for employees who keep their jobs.”

Rail

Close the system at 10 p.m. each night

Close 10 of the lowest ridership stations (without closing any two that are next to each other)

Increase wait times to 15 minutes between trains on almost every line on weekdays, 20 minutes on weekends

Reintroduce “turnbacks” for every other Red Line train at Grosvenor and Silver Spring (Red Line trains would come every 7 and a half minutes on weekends between those stations and every 15 minutes north of those stations)

End the Silver Line at the Stadium-Armory, with only the Blue Line continuing to Downtown Largo; all Silver Line trains would be six cars to enable them to turn around at Stadium-Armory

Hike fares and parking fees by 20%, with the maximum fare rising from $6 to $7.20

Shorten peak service periods

Reduce staffing at entrances

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #30: December 12, 2023, 01:41:49 PM »
Traffic isn't bad now, but it would be. Rt 1 is really the only way inunless people cut through national coming off the GW.
yes from the city. I often route people to CC via the airport and the parkway. Potomac Ave is built to handle more traffic but it's only 2 lanes each way. I would not have liked to have bought a condo in Po Yards near the Giant and Target figuring it was convenient. I suppose Glebe and perhaps even Rt 27 via Pentagon and 12th street would be options from south. Would not have to touch Rte 1 from 395.

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #31: December 12, 2023, 01:53:33 PM »
I always felt pretty good that my state taxes weren't directly subsidizing pro sports teams.   This would be an annoying development in that aspect, especially since whatever benefits there are would be just a tiny portion of the state.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/12/11/monumental-sports-capitals-wizards-alexandria-virginia-capital-one-arena/

“A Virginia stadium authority would borrow from Wall Street to pay for the project and pay that money back later. The creation of the stadium authority would allow the developer to leverage state and municipal bond rates — which are well below market rate — to finance construction.“

Maybe at some point we can dig out of mothballs some of the associated write ups about the finances of the previous Virginia baseball stadium authority plans, as well as the Virginia Resource Authority bonds that actually seem to conceivably not result in not as big of a hit to the treasury / taxpayers compared with some of the stadium plans that have come forward. I think this surfaced previously in the football stadium talks as well.

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #32: December 12, 2023, 01:58:50 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/12/11/monumental-sports-capitals-wizards-alexandria-virginia-capital-one-arena/

“A Virginia stadium authority would borrow from Wall Street to pay for the project and pay that money back later. The creation of the stadium authority would allow the developer to leverage state and municipal bond rates — which are well below market rate — to finance construction.“

Maybe at some point we can dig out of mothballs some of the associated write ups about the finances of the previous Virginia baseball stadium authority plans, as well as the Virginia Resource Authority bonds that actually seem to conceivably not result in not as big of a hit to the treasury / taxpayers compared with some of the stadium plans that have come forward. I think this surfaced previously in the football stadium talks as well.

Here’s some of that:

https://www.bondbuyer.com/news/virginia-officials-wary-of-using-moral-obligation-for-baseball

“Under the current financing proposal, which would need state legislative approval, the Virginia Resources Authority - the only entity in the state that issues moral obligation debt - would issue a combination of tax-exempt and taxable debt for the proposed facility. Based on its moral obligation pledge, VRA bonds typically receive a double-A-rating from credit agencies.

“Although triple-A rated Virginia has never had to call on it, the state's moral obligation pledge significantly enhances the credit quality of its loan programs because if a bond issue's capital reserve fund drops below its minimal requirement, the issuer may submit a request to the governor for needed funds, and he in turn is legally bound to request the appropriation from the legislature. The General Assembly is scheduled to begin its 2005 annual legislative session on Jan. 12.”

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #33: December 12, 2023, 02:02:53 PM »
Here’s some of that:

https://www.bondbuyer.com/news/virginia-officials-wary-of-using-moral-obligation-for-baseball

“Under the current financing proposal, which would need state legislative approval, the Virginia Resources Authority - the only entity in the state that issues moral obligation debt - would issue a combination of tax-exempt and taxable debt for the proposed facility. Based on its moral obligation pledge, VRA bonds typically receive a double-A-rating from credit agencies.

“Although triple-A rated Virginia has never had to call on it, the state's moral obligation pledge significantly enhances the credit quality of its loan programs because if a bond issue's capital reserve fund drops below its minimal requirement, the issuer may submit a request to the governor for needed funds, and he in turn is legally bound to request the appropriation from the legislature. The General Assembly is scheduled to begin its 2005 annual legislative session on Jan. 12.”

From 2000:

https://www.bondbuyer.com/news/virginia-agency-to-draft-plan-aimed-at-luring-baseball-team

Virginia Agency to Draft Plan Aimed at Luring Baseball Team

WASHINGTON - In a move that could advance efforts by northern Virginia to attract a professional baseball team, the Virginia Resources Authority is preparing to develop a financing plan to sell bonds for a new stadium in the event that a team agrees to settle in the state.

Advocates of attracting a Major League Baseball team hope the agency can help them develop a more appealing financing package for a stadium deal. This could enhance their chances of attracting a team -- an effort that remains a long way from success.

The VRA is likely to start financial discussions with the Virginia Baseball Stadium Authority this summer, according to Robert Lauterberg, the VRA's executive director.

The move stems from legislation signed last month by Gov. James Gilmore that authorizes the VRA to finance any professional sports facilities. The legislation was pushed by the baseball stadium authority, which already has authority to issue bonds.

"We thought that using the VRA might be advantageous from the standpoint of helping us and getting a better interest rate, because they have the bond market contacts and they do this all the time," said Gabe Paul Jr., executive director of the stadium authority. "It gives us an another option to pursue when we're looking at the structure of financing for the ballpark."

The discussions could lead to a plan in which the VRA would sell either tax-exempt or taxable bonds, or a mix of the two, Lauterberg said. If the bonds are tax-exempt, the baseball authority would most likely have to tap into Virginia's private-activity bond allocation, he added. Because the stadium authority already has authority to issue bonds, both Lauterberg and Paul said it is possible that the VRA may not be involved in a final plan.

They also said a stadium would be built only after a team commits to move to Virginia. But that may not happen in the near future. The baseball authority has been in talks over the last couple of years with several teams, including the Houston Astros. But those talks failed when Houston made a commitment to build a new stadium.

Paul said the baseball authority is now targeting teams that play in old stadiums where the lease is about to expire, and where the city doesn't want to build a new one. Possible candidates include the Oakland Athletics, the Minnesota Twins, and the Florida Marlins, he said.

"In this day and age, any city that doesn't get a new ballpark has a possibility of the team moving," he said. "In order to be economically competitive, clubs need the additional revenues that new ballparks generate."

The VRA's involvement is a new step for the agency, which focuses on providing low-cost financing to localities for infrastructure projects.

"It's a broadening of the kinds of projects we've done in the past," Lauterberg said. "Our focus has always been on projects at the local level that are a statewide priority. And the General Assembly has identified bringing Major League Baseball to Virginia as a priority."

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #34: December 12, 2023, 02:05:55 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/12/11/monumental-sports-capitals-wizards-alexandria-virginia-capital-one-arena/

“A Virginia stadium authority would borrow from Wall Street to pay for the project and pay that money back later. The creation of the stadium authority would allow the developer to leverage state and municipal bond rates — which are well below market rate — to finance construction.“

Maybe at some point we can dig out of mothballs some of the associated write ups about the finances of the previous Virginia baseball stadium authority plans, as well as the Virginia Resource Authority bonds that actually seem to conceivably not result in not as big of a hit to the treasury / taxpayers compared with some of the stadium plans that have come forward. I think this surfaced previously in the football stadium talks as well.

Do you really think the teams would relocate without massive tax concessions and subsidies? If both DC and Alexandria are bidding and the starting point is a $600 stadium subsidy for renovations from DC, it's safe to assume the 'winner' will be stuck with a terrible deal. I'm just happy to be a Fairfax and not and Alexandria City taxpayer 

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #35: December 12, 2023, 02:12:42 PM »
Do you really think the teams would relocate without massive tax concessions and subsidies? If both DC and Alexandria are bidding and the starting point is a $600 stadium subsidy for renovations from DC, it's safe to assume the 'winner' will be stuck with a terrible deal. I'm just happy to be a Fairfax and not and Alexandria City taxpayer

Note my use of the word “conceivably“ solely on the bond aspect of it, as well as discussing at length the evidently ill-conceived aspects of this entire thing.

Offline Smithian

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #36: December 12, 2023, 04:06:01 PM »
Absolute disaster for downtown DC. No one to blame but the city itself. Made it very easy for the teams to go over to VA.

Action, or lack thereof, has consequences.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #37: December 12, 2023, 04:26:14 PM »
Absolute disaster for downtown DC. No one to blame but the city itself. Made it very easy for the teams to go over to VA.

Action, or lack thereof, has consequences.
I wonder whether it is a disaster for DC. Don't you think a nice block like that in Penn Quarter could get some private developer to put up some mixed use retail / condos? There was the big development at the old convention center site. Those big blocks in a major east coast urban center are worth a lot.

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #38: December 12, 2023, 04:26:48 PM »
Absolute disaster for downtown DC. No one to blame but the city itself. Made it very easy for the teams to go over to VA.

Action, or lack thereof, has consequences.

Far from over


Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #39: December 12, 2023, 04:42:39 PM »
I wonder whether it is a disaster for DC. Don't you think a nice block like that in Penn Quarter could get some private developer to put up some mixed use retail / condos? There was the big development at the old convention center site. Those big blocks in a major east coast urban center are worth a lot.

Is there really demand for that? Commercial real-estate is not doing great. I'd assume all of the bars and restaurants will die off. I wonder if Alexandria gets a say? The biggest impediment to moving the commanders under Bruce Allen was a clause in the bill giving local governments a veto which ruled out Arlington, Alexandria and Fairfax . That meant Prince William which was never a viable option. Maybe the state government learned from their mistake 

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #40: December 12, 2023, 04:57:44 PM »
I had totally forgotten about this https://wtop.com/dc/2023/03/monumental-sports-beefs-up-security-as-dc-police-presence-diminishes-downtown/ but it looks like the ground work has been laid for awhile now

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #41: December 12, 2023, 05:00:07 PM »
Is there really demand for that? Commercial real-estate is not doing great. I'd assume all of the bars and restaurants will die off. I wonder if Alexandria gets a say? The biggest impediment to moving the commanders under Bruce Allen was a clause in the bill giving local governments a veto which ruled out Arlington, Alexandria and Fairfax . That meant Prince William which was never a viable option. Maybe the state government learned from their mistake

Along the lines of prepping and learning from previous processes, this is where the aforementioned zoning changes coming, which would not only on single-family zoning:

“Expansion of transit-oriented development: P&Z believes “the planned priority transit corridors in Alexandria West and the Duke Street corridor present an opportunity to add more market rate and affordable housing.”

“Wagner believes this aspect of ZFH needs more clarification from city staff. He said staff has “muddied the waters” and essentially declared large swaths of the city as priority transit corridors.

“If things are close to the Metro stations that should support higher density of development, that’s what we’d like to see,” Wagner said. “What [city staff has] done in the process is basically included almost all of the city [within enhanced transit areas].”

Also:

“A major criticism of ZFH is it’s all encompassing, which is overwhelming for the city and its residents. Many residents also said the initiative was just introduced, leaving them no time to properly review the documents and proposed changes.”

So who really knows how thoroughly the ground was laid on that front. Regardless, the place of these changes in the timeline seem anything but coincidental.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #42: December 12, 2023, 05:29:35 PM »
Alexandria’s mayor just announced he’s not running for reelection. He can push this through and take the heat off of the next mayor.

Offline Smithian

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #43: December 12, 2023, 05:33:27 PM »
I wonder whether it is a disaster for DC. Don't you think a nice block like that in Penn Quarter could get some private developer to put up some mixed use retail / condos? There was the big development at the old convention center site. Those big blocks in a major east coast urban center are worth a lot.
Penn Quarter already feels empty and dangerous compared to pre-2020. We know it's dangerous. We know bars are running away. We know about the open air drug markets.

Now, take away 82 dates a year for home games. Add another 20 for pre- and post-season. Why would someone move there? I do dinner there, including this week. I have no idea how those places survive. I know I personally would not live there.

This is just frustrating. To allow an open air drug market right there was a decision and the area is paying for it. I don't know if a safer area would have saved the team from moving to a state desperate for a pro sports presence, but I know it is a lot easier for the Capitals to justify a move by just pointing in the directions of open air drug use and a crime ransacked neighborhood with closing stores and restaurants.

Choices were made. This is a consequence. I get your point, but I also see an RFK site completely usefully the city both refuses to court the Commanders while also not wanting to let a developer into the area. If abandoned, I don't believe the Cap One Arena site will be maximized in the 2020's or 2030's.

It will get so much worse in the short term. Let's all pray for an economic upturn in next few years. I want DC to thrive. I don't want the only way to live safely and happily in the DMV to be the M and V.

Offline imref

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #44: December 12, 2023, 05:47:47 PM »
An event is scheduled for tomorrow at Potomac yards with Ted and Youngkin. It’s happening.

Virginia offering $1 billion per Washington business journal

https://www.instagram.com/p/C0xMz2sPwrj/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #45: December 12, 2023, 05:53:04 PM »
106.7 said Ted gave DC 18 hours to counter and that the previous $600 request would no longer be enough. I have a feeling that alexandria tax payers are about to get screwed. Arlington has to be happy- their hotels will get the increased revenue

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #46: December 12, 2023, 06:38:28 PM »
Kind of bumming over in CC. That's a bike trail I use. I can use the MTV, but I like Potomac ave when it's been wet or I am hauling stuff.

Strikes me this is a Youngkin ego trip.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #47: December 12, 2023, 06:49:47 PM »
Kind of bumming over in CC. That's a bike trail I use. I can use the MTV, but I like Potomac ave when it's been wet or I am hauling stuff.

Strikes me this is a Youngkin ego trip.

I doubt they get rid of the bike trail. That  trail is too narrow to really be useful and used . I just wonder how they fit everything on the plot.

Offline imref

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #48: December 12, 2023, 06:50:22 PM »
It's really sad. I may be unique in this, but i love going to the arena downtown and am not looking forward as much to going to Alexandria. Hopefully the arena can still survive much as CFG has in Baltimore.

FWIW, there's a very real chance that the full Virginia legislature does not approve the deal.

Also worth noting that leonsis still owns Capital One arena.

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Caps and Wiz moving to Potomac Yards?
« Reply #49: December 12, 2023, 06:52:59 PM »
Kind of bumming over in CC. That's a bike trail I use. I can use the MTV, but I like Potomac ave when it's been wet or I am hauling stuff.

Strikes me this is a Youngkin ego trip.

Give Ted and his new playmates full credit.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/11/08/wizards-capitals-qatar-ted-leonsis/

“This summer, Leonsis became the first NBA or NHL owner to take advantage of these rules, selling a 5 percent stake of Monumental Sports to the Qatar Investment Authority (QIA) for approximately $200 million. For Leonsis, it’s the ideal business relationship, and he said the Qatari fund will have no influence on Monumental’s teams.

““I don’t view QIA as partners. I view them as investors,” he said. “And I’m aligned with their investment philosophy, which is: ‘We believe in you, Ted, and Monumental management as managers, where you’re fiduciary to all of your partners to do the right things in the right way. And we are not involved.’“

And yet there might be a scintilla of a sliver of a possible chance maybe that they were in the loop more than the local citizenry up to this point.