Martinez is officially worse than Manny Freaking Acta

[Natsinpwc]

What steps do you think a new manager would take to improve the team. Other than not playing Garrett enough I can’t see how a new guy would help. It’s just a bad roster. That’s on ownership mostly IMHO.

[Natsinpwc]

He won a WS when given a competent roster. How is that not part of the solution?

Which managers would have made the playoffs after 2019 with the roster that Martinez had? Which managers are making the playoffs with their number 2 and 3 starters having ERAs over 5?

To be fair he had pretty much the same roster in 2018 and missed the playoffs.  Seems like a guy players like and good for a vet team.

[imref]

I like Riggleman for the most part, but he went full retard with his midseason ultimatum.  He'll forever be known for that, and it's impossible to separate his actual managerial success from it.

I honestly think that Davey is an okay manager, but I honestly think that he and the Nats got extremely lucky in 2019.  Every other season with Davey they've been pretty bad, and that includes the 2018 roster meltdown.  The Nats had high payroll 2018 through the middle of 2021, so it's not like Davey was brought into the same situation as, say Manny Acta.  Who was a legitimately bad manager with no payroll and a bunch of rando players to work with.

Frank Robinson was good.  Acta was horrible.  Riggleman was okay.  Johnson was good.  Williams stank, even though he won Manager of the Year.  Dusty, I guess good.  Davey, he's at best okay. 

Every team that wins the WS gets lucky in some respect. The playoffs are a crapshoot.

[Kevrock]

Managers are not tacticians in the modern game, they are personality managers. I'll stick with the one who showed he can help a team gel and navigate a season like 2019. Don't forget how miserable that season started, 19-31, and the team pulled together and caught fire while having fun.

Anyway, I've said my piece Chrissy

[nfotiu]

We need to fire our owners.   Nothing else matters much until we have owners wanting to build something, and not just run in bare min maintenance mode.

[Slateman]

To be fair he had pretty much the same roster in 2018 and missed the playoffs.  Seems like a guy players like and good for a vet team.

Not really. The lineup was similar, but the pitching in 2018 was significantly worse. Strasburg and Scherzer were practically a wash in 2018 and 2019, as one or the other missed significant time to injury. Combined they pitched about 30 more innings in 2019 than 2018. That's probably 4-5 games, so figure they win 3 of those. But the real difference between 2018 and 2019 was our 3rd and 4th starters. Gio Gonzalez and Tanner Roark both had ERAs over 4 in 2018, and neither had a winning record. Their replacements were Patrick Corbin and Annibal Sanchez. While we like to lament Corbin, he is probably the biggest reason the Nats made the playoffs in 2019, as he 202 innings to a 3.25 ERA. Annibal threw 166 innings to the tune of a 3.85 ERA. So not only did we get significantly more innings out of the 3 and 4 spots in the rotation, but the Nats got significantly better

But to your own point, the Nats finished above .500 in 2018. So again, when Martinez is given at least decent MLB talent, he is an above .500 manager.
 
The drop off from 2019 to 2020 and beyond is so steep. They never replaced the performance of 2019 Corbin and Sanchez. They never got Strasburg back. I mean, effectively, your rotation was a Cy Young contender in Schezer, broken Corbin, and then ... Erick Fedde. The organization never replaced Anthony Rendon or Adam Eaton. Never developed any talent to fill in, even at the role player level. So I'm kind of struggling with how firing Martinez makes the team better, even in the long term.

[Slateman]

Managers are not tacticians in the modern game, they are personality managers. I'll stick with the one who showed he can help a team gel and navigate a season like 2019. Don't forget how miserable that season started, 19-31, and the team pulled together and caught fire while having fun.

Anyway, I've said my piece Chrissy

Yep, in the regular season, I absolutely agree. In the post-season, they are more in-game tacticians. That's really the bigger reason I'd want to keep Martinez. He navigating the 2019 postseason brilliantly. Getting Strasburg comfortable enough to come in relief. Managing an absolutely crappile of a bullpen in a forum that expects every team to have multiple good relievers. Not letting the  mood turn sour even when it could have easily spiraled (NLDS after Howie's fielding and running mistakes).

I'll say it forever: If the Nats had hired Martinez after the 2015 season when they interviewed him the first time, we'd have multiple championships right now.

[Senatorswin]

Earl Weaver couldn't win 70 games with the team the Nationals are putting on the field in 2023. But that doesn't change the fact Martinez took a team that won 97 games in 2017 under Dusty and won 82 games in 2018. In 2019 on May 23 he was 19-31.

This is a team with Rendon, Turner, Zimmerman, Adams, Eaton, Soto, Scherzer, Strasburg, Gomes etc.

In 2021 they still had Josh Bell, Zimmerman, Soto, Schwarber, Turner, Scherzer. On the last day of May they were 21-29.

[Slateman]

Earl Weaver couldn't win 70 games with the team the Nationals are putting on the field in 2023. But that doesn't change the fact Martinez took a team that won 97 games in 2017 under Dusty and won 82 games in 2018. In 2019 on May 23 he was 19-31.

This is a team with Rendon, Turner, Zimmerman, Adams, Eaton, Soto, Scherzer, Strasburg, Gomes etc.

In 2021 they still had Josh Bell, Zimmerman, Soto, Schwarber, Turner, Scherzer. On the last day of May they were 21-29.

Martinez took the choking teams Baker had and turned them in to WS champions

[imref]

Let's not forget the 2018 team had a ton of injuries (Eaton, Murphy, Zimmerman, Strasburg, Kintzler, Herrera, Doolittle) and an awful bullpen that included Matt Grace, Wander Suero, and Shawn Kelly in key roles. We had Matt Weiters behind the dish, MAT in CF, and Wilmer Difo as our everyday 2nd baseman. We opened the season with Jeremey Hellickson as a starter (who got hurt on his first start) and replaced him with Jefry Rodriguez.

[IanRubbish]

That Martinez is worse than Riggleman? You are what your record says you are.

Riggleman had Zimm, Adam Dunn, and Josh Willingham who could put the ball over the fence, which no one on this team can.  Michael Morse could as well, but Riggleman platooned him for no good reason.

Davey has not been great this year, but Riggleman's teams severely underperformed. 

[IanRubbish]

We need to fire our owners.   Nothing else matters much until we have owners wanting to build something, and not just run in bare min maintenance mode.

Yes.  Mini Me runs this franchise with no pride.   He's more worried about pinching pennies than consistently winning.

[PowerBoater69]

Riggleman had Zimm, Adam Dunn, and Josh Willingham who could put the ball over the fence, which no one on this team can.  Michael Morse could as well, but Riggleman platooned him for no good reason.

Davey has not been great this year, but Riggleman's teams severely underperformed. 

Riggleman was here for half of 2009, all of 2010, and half of 2011, the payroll for those three seasons combined was lower than what Martinez had in 2019 alone. Martinez has had vastly better talent and his teams have a worse record than under Riggleman. There is no way to argue that Martinez is the better manager. What team in MLB has four straight last place finishes and keeps the manager? What team allows their manager to rack up 320+ losses in three seasons?

[PowerBoater69]

We need to fire our owners.   Nothing else matters much until we have owners wanting to build something, and not just run in bare min maintenance mode.

No doubt, but they tried to remove themselves and that didn't work out so well. Next best thing is to replace the manager and probably the GM.

[PowerBoater69]

Managers are not tacticians in the modern game, they are personality managers. I'll stick with the one who showed he can help a team gel and navigate a season like 2019. Don't forget how miserable that season started, 19-31, and the team pulled together and caught fire while having fun.

Anyway, I've said my piece Chrissy

Do the Nats look like they are having fun? They looked miserable most of last year and they look pretty miserable so far this year. The days of camels, cabbage smashing, dancing in the dugout, and wearing funny costumes are long over.

[PowerBoater69]

What steps do you think a new manager would take to improve the team. Other than not playing Garrett enough I can’t see how a new guy would help. It’s just a bad roster. That’s on ownership mostly IMHO.

Change for the sake of change type of improvements, the Nats are stuck in a rut and Martinez is out of creative ideas. Maybe a guy who the players don't want to face in the locker room after scoring zero runs could spark some change. "This is fine" as a management strategy is just too painful to watch.

[Natsinpwc]

Change for the sake of change type of improvements, the Nats are stuck in a rut and Martinez is out of creative ideas. Maybe a guy who the players don't want to face in the locker room after scoring zero runs could spark some change. "This is fine" as a management strategy is just too painful to watch.

I think you’re more invested than most of us because you have season tickets. At this point it’s not a playoff team so I think for most causal fans does not matter much if it’s 50 or 60 or 70 wins. There is a long term risk of losing fans. They really need to do something in the next off-season to make the team competitive. Without the Strasburg and Corning contracts it’s basically the lowest payroll in the league. No reason that last off-season they couldn’t have targeted a veteran bat and starter for one or two year deals. 

[Slateman]

Still want to know how anyone managers this teams to 75+ wins

[Slateman]

Change for the sake of change type of improvements, the Nats are stuck in a rut and Martinez is out of creative ideas. Maybe a guy who the players don't want to face in the locker room after scoring zero runs could spark some change. "This is fine" as a management strategy is just too painful to watch.

Yea, Im sure an intimidating/angry manager would do wonders for this team

[PowerBoater69]

I think you’re more invested than most of us because you have season tickets. At this point it’s not a playoff team so I think for most causal fans does not matter much if it’s 50 or 60 or 70 wins. There is a long term risk of losing fans. They really need to do something in the next off-season to make the team competitive. Without the Strasburg and Corning contracts it’s basically the lowest payroll in the league. No reason that last off-season they couldn’t have targeted a veteran bat and starter for one or two year deals. 

But at what point do we become a late night talk show joke? It is hard to shed that reputation with free agents that DC is no longer serious about winning. With no chance at a top pick are we just tanking to save money for ownership? If that's not the case the best way to prove it would be to eat the rest of Martinez's salary. (I'm not sure that I'm that much more invested than anyone else on a Nats site, I used to go to ~25 games a year, I'm down to ~10 although that has nothing to do with wins and losses.)

[Slateman]

WNFF. The place where Strasburg is a wussy because he wont pitch with nerve damage, and a lineup consisting of bench players, quad A ball types, and under developed prospects would score more runs if only their manager would get mad at them.

[Mattionals]

WNFF. The place where Strasburg is a wussy because he wont pitch with nerve damage, and a lineup consisting of bench players, quad A ball types, and under developed prospects would score more runs if only their manager would get mad at them.

 

[skippy1999]

Riggleman?

[JCA-CrystalCity]

in 13 years, Riggleman had a .445 winning % and took one team to the playoffs, the 1998 Cubs, who were swept 3-0. He had one full season above .500 (1998) and one strike season, 1995, 73-71.

Davey is no great shakes, but no one on Earth could make the team he had this year or the one he had in 2022 looks better than a AAA team competing in the majors.  That's because they basically are.

[GburgNatsFan]

Wish there was a like button.

WNFF. The place where Strasburg is a wussy because he wont pitch with nerve damage, and a lineup consisting of bench players, quad A ball types, and under developed prospects would score more runs if only their manager would get mad at them.