Author Topic: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?  (Read 4289 times)

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Online Senatorswin

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #75: May 26, 2023, 04:18:20 PM »
Honestly, I'd rather let younger, more promising relievers have a shot. Finnegan's value is pretty much set. No one is going to pick him up as a closer. Time to see who else can develop.

If I'm Davey Martinez I would look at it as we didn't expect Corbin, Gray, Gore and Williams to pitch like they are. If we stop blowing saves maybe I can win some games and get in the wild card conversation. If that happens maybe I can still manage this team next year.

Online Senatorswin

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #76: May 26, 2023, 04:19:28 PM »
Honestly, I'd rather let younger, more promising relievers have a shot. Finnegan's value is pretty much set. No one is going to pick him up as a closer. Time to see who else can develop.


BTW, who are these MORE promising younger relievers?

Offline Slateman

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #77: May 26, 2023, 04:32:57 PM »
If I'm Davey Martinez I would look at it as we didn't expect Corbin, Gray, Gore and Williams to pitch like they are. If we stop blowing saves maybe I can win some games and get in the wild card conversation. If that happens maybe I can still manage this team next year.
Lol, they're no where near a wild card team. Anyone with a half a brain can see Corbin has been stupidly lucky to start the season. The wheels are coming off on Gore and, even if they don't, he hits his inning limit in August with nothing in the farm system to backfill. Rizzo isn't going to turn around a rebuild and start trading for assets. Hell, even if he wanted to, he probably wouldn't be allowed to by current ownership. If we're legitimately competing for a WC team, then why the hell are Call, Ruiz, Abrams, and Garcia still in the MLB roster?

Every measurable has Finnegan regressing this year. He turns 32 in September. He is at the end. He is amongst the worst relievers in baseball in giving up hard contact. His FIP and XERA are well over 5. His WHIP is 1.60. His home run rate makes Max look like a groundball pitcher.  Comparing Finnegan with the best closer in baseball is so unbelievably laughable that I'm wondering if you and PB69 are the same person.

Finn sucks. Trade him now while he has some value. Let Harvey get some more chances and see if he can get over the hump in save situations. That's something we need to know now, so the team can start preparing for meaningful baseball in a couple years. But one way or another, Finnegan is not a good closer by any measurement in baseball. We aren't competing. We're not even trying to compete. This is a rebuild, treat it as such.

Online Senatorswin

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #78: May 26, 2023, 05:32:22 PM »
Lol, they're no where near a wild card team. Anyone with a half a brain can see Corbin has been stupidly lucky to start the season. The wheels are coming off on Gore and, even if they don't, he hits his inning limit in August with nothing in the farm system to backfill. Rizzo isn't going to turn around a rebuild and start trading for assets. Hell, even if he wanted to, he probably wouldn't be allowed to by current ownership. If we're legitimately competing for a WC team, then why the hell are Call, Ruiz, Abrams, and Garcia still in the MLB roster?

Every measurable has Finnegan regressing this year. He turns 32 in September. He is at the end. He is amongst the worst relievers in baseball in giving up hard contact. His FIP and XERA are well over 5. His WHIP is 1.60. His home run rate makes Max look like a groundball pitcher.  Comparing Finnegan with the best closer in baseball is so unbelievably laughable that I'm wondering if you and PB69 are the same person.

Finn sucks. Trade him now while he has some value. Let Harvey get some more chances and see if he can get over the hump in save situations. That's something we need to know now, so the team can start preparing for meaningful baseball in a couple years. But one way or another, Finnegan is not a good closer by any measurement in baseball. We aren't competing. We're not even trying to compete. This is a rebuild, treat it as such.

That's ridiculous on many levels. First, I said the only reliever with a better save opportunity this year is Hader with 86%. Finnegan is second at 83%. That's a fact. That's not saying Finnegan is as good as Hader or comparable. It's just saying Finnegan has the second best successful save percentage of any reliever in baseball this season. That's the stat that counts. Again, if you want to trade him let him show his value to other teams.

If the Nat relievers hadn't blown so many save opportunities, near the most in baseball, they would have a winning record. A blind man could see Corbin is pitching better. I don't know, and you don't know, if he'll keep it up. Gore still has tremendous promise. Gray is pitching better than anybody expected. Williams is doing his job. It's not going to hurt the rebuild to do their best now and see where they are at the trade deadline.


Offline Slateman

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #79: May 26, 2023, 05:52:24 PM »
That's ridiculous on many levels. First, I said the only reliever with a better save opportunity this year is Hader with 86%. Finnegan is second at 83%. That's a fact. That's not saying Finnegan is as good as Hader or comparable. It's just saying Finnegan has the second best successful save percentage of any reliever in baseball this season. That's the stat that counts. Again, if you want to trade him let him show his value to other teams.

If the Nat relievers hadn't blown so many save opportunities, near the most in baseball, they would have a winning record. A blind man could see Corbin is pitching better. I don't know, and you don't know, if he'll keep it up. Gore still has tremendous promise. Gray is pitching better than anybody expected. Williams is doing his job. It's not going to hurt the rebuild to do their best now and see where they are at the trade deadline.



So first off, that's not true. Alexis Diaz, Carlos Etevez, Pierce Johnson, and Paul Sewald are all rocking 100% save rates with 10 or more saves. Camilo Doval has one blown save in 14 opportunities. David Robertson is 8 for 9. Alex Lange, Will Smith, and David Bednar are 9 for 10.  Ryan Pressley and Devin Williams both haven't blown a save. Honestly, Finnegan's 83% doesn't sound very good to me.

Not all of the blown saves were in the 9th inning. Is Finnegan supposed to pitch multiple innings now? The bullpen is filled with young, inexperienced relievers and journeyman that no one else was willing to sign. Like all the other bad teams in baseball. Not really certain how Rizzo is supposed to run out and find better relievers on the street.

Online Senatorswin

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #80: May 26, 2023, 06:42:20 PM »
Again, it doesn't matter if it is the 9th inning. If they weren't near the league lead in blown saves, just say 5 less than the 11 they have they'd have a winning record. That was my original message and there's no use going over it again. It's just a fact. Unfortunately, that's the case though and the Nats just have to hope the players who blew these saves either get better or are replaced.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #81: May 26, 2023, 06:43:58 PM »
Again, it doesn't matter if it is the 9th inning. If they weren't near the league lead in blown saves, just say 5 less than the 11 they have they'd have a winning record. That was my original message and there's no use going over it again. It's just a fact. Unfortunately, that's the case though and the Nats just have to hope the players who blew these saves either get better or are replaced.
Who else was going to pitch?

Online Senatorswin

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #82: May 26, 2023, 06:58:54 PM »
Who else was going to pitch?

Not sure what your point is. Martinez used the guys he thought would do the job. If they had blown just 5 less saves the Nats would be in second place. But every team has issues and weak points. Martinez has to just hope they do better. He just needs to put the players in a position they are best suited for and not put relievers in high leverage situations they're not suited for.

Again, I really don't have a problem with what Martinez did yesterday. Harvey dominated the middle of the Padres lineup the night before. It just didn't work.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #83: May 27, 2023, 07:53:17 PM »
Great bullpen performance today. 5 shutout innings, 3 hits,  6 ks.

Thompson looked good for 2 innings.

Online welch

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #84: May 27, 2023, 08:54:44 PM »
Thompson had looked ragged lately. He has returned from the dead. Thompson is a genuine Nat of the Living Dead II.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #85: May 28, 2023, 11:03:56 AM »
Thompson had looked ragged lately. He has returned from the dead. Thompson is a genuine Nat of the Living Dead II.
the overuse abuse he took at the beginning of may leading to a blown lead vs the mets really seemed to knock him out of sync. it took until this week, but he seems to have strung together 3 effective appearances in a row. i have not seen anyone pick apart his motion to see if there was a mechanical tweak.

the team could use another bullpen A arm to be less reliant on edwards especially and to bridge up to edwards harvey finny. erasmo looks lost after being that guy, and machado is too unreliable. if maybe kuhl and thompson can take turns, that might work.

Offline aspenbubba

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #86: May 31, 2023, 09:03:57 AM »
Machado and Rodriguez should be DFA's sooner rather than later. They bring nothing to the table and at what point does it matter who pitches in relief as it is an automatic blown inning. Let's give some others a shot as we know what the results will be with Machado and Rodriguez. 

Offline Slateman

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #87: May 31, 2023, 09:13:37 AM »
Who is Rodriguez?

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #88: May 31, 2023, 10:14:14 AM »
Ramirez has been effective last year and at the start of this year. up to about 5/7, he had had effective outings about 3 out of 4 times this year. it's just now he's at best a coin flip. ideally, he'd be able to work things out in some low stress outings and bullpens over the next week or so, only appearing when we are white flagging a game.

as for machado, he's hard thrower, and that's it. never had sustained success. time to move on.

Offline aspenbubba

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #89: May 31, 2023, 10:46:46 AM »
Who is Rodriguez?
Oooops. Ramiirez as JCA  so adroitly corrected.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #90: May 31, 2023, 10:52:49 AM »
Ah. Yea, bad. Who takes their spots though? Like, I've been anti-Machado since the beginning, but there is a lack of depth in our pitching.

Essentially, who do we want to develop at the major league level?

Offline aspenbubba

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #91: May 31, 2023, 12:55:17 PM »
Ah. Yea, bad. Who takes their spots though? Like, I've been anti-Machado since the beginning, but there is a lack of depth in our pitching.

Essentially, who do we want to develop at the major league level?
We admittedly don't have the depth in the minors of young developing arms but we have Espino ( am I really saying this) and others who were signed to minor league contracts. I'd give them a shot over Machado and I know that Davey and Hickey feel they can fix Ramirez but I doubt it given how bad he has been recently. 

Online imref

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #92: May 31, 2023, 01:44:30 PM »
maybe move Lane Thomas to the bullpen?

Offline GataNats

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #93: May 31, 2023, 11:09:24 PM »
We admittedly don't have the depth in the minors of young developing arms but we have Espino ( am I really saying this) and others who were signed to minor league contracts. I'd give them a shot over Machado and I know that Davey and Hickey feel they can fix Ramirez but I doubt it given how bad he has been recently.

Machado should get way more rope than Ramirez.   Machado throws much harder, is 3 years younger, and isn’t built like Donald Trump.   Ramirez has no business on the roster

Online imref

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #94: May 31, 2023, 11:19:01 PM »
What do we know about Tyler Danish? He has been respectable so far this year at Rochester.

Offline blue911

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #95: June 01, 2023, 08:12:14 AM »
What do we know about Tyler Danish? He has been respectable so far this year at Rochester.

Major league hitters would eat him alive.


Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #96: June 01, 2023, 09:12:06 AM »
Major league hitters would eat him alive.


he brings cheese, though.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #97: June 05, 2023, 09:34:40 AM »
Machado designated for assignment per Dougherty. He speculates that one of Ferrer, Baldonado, or Doolittle will be the replacement in order to add a lefty.  A bit of closing the barn door after the horse leaves, or, in this case, after Harper and Schwarber all beat righties in critical situations while games were close this weekend.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/06/05/nats-could-really-use-lefty-reliever-one-could-be-coming-soon/

Quote
Dropping Machado clears a spot on the 40-man roster, which Doolittle would need because he re-signed on a minor league contract after undergoing elbow surgery last summer. The 36-year-old pitched in back-to-back games for low Class A Fredericksburg on Thursday and Friday, a sign that he’s ready to return. Last spring, he retired 16 of the 17 batters he faced before going on the injured list.

Ferrer, added to the 40-man roster in November to protect him from being taken in the Rule 5 draft, has a 3.23 ERA in 30⅔ innings at Class AAA Rochester. The 23-year-old impressed in spring training with a high-90s fastball and an improved slider. With Rochester, though, he has walked a lot of batters — 5.28 per nine innings — and struck out way fewer than he did at lower levels, which is expected for a young reliever who shot up the system in 2022. He has yet to pitch in the majors. Baldonado, who pitched for Washington in 2021, is also with Rochester but has struggled to limit his walks over 27⅔ innings.

same article, appalling stat:
Quote
On the season, Washington’s relievers have a majors-worst .846 OPS against when facing left-handed hitters, according to statistical database TruMedia. The Arizona Diamondbacks, their opponent this week, are the second worst at .844. No other team’s bullpen has allowed an OPS higher than .764 to lefties.

Offline catocony

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #98: June 05, 2023, 06:27:32 PM »
I assume that no other bullpen has zero lefties in it.

Online imref

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Re: Bullpen - the strength of 2023?
« Reply #99: June 05, 2023, 07:30:20 PM »
I assume that no other bullpen has zero lefties in it.

The Astros went through much of 2019 without a leftie in the pen. Both Ryan Pressley and Will Harris were better against LHBs than against RHBs. They also didn't have a LHP in the pen in their run to the WS last year.

L/R doesn't matter if RHP's can get LHBs out.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-astros-dont-need-lefties/