Author Topic: Nationals Prospect Reports / Minor League Rankings 2023  (Read 7387 times)

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Offline DCsOwn

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https://twitter.com/JimBowdenGM/status/1629104206551343112?s=20

Bowden's name is pretty much mud in some circles (including this one ostensibly), but I will say that he was right as rain about Soto a few seasons before he became really en vogue. Bowden had him as the number 2 prospect in the sport when he was still ranked in the 20s on some lists. Could've been a broken clock situation, but still, he's clearly very high on the Nats future outfield.

Offline Smithian

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Hassell gives me Nick Markakis vibes. Good at making contact but otherwise a light hitter who plays average defense in a corner outfield spot.

Which would honestly be a great outcome.
If he wants to turn into poor man's Adam Eaton, I'd be happy.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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https://blogs.fangraphs.com/zips-2023-top-100-prospects/

this one is a list spit out by one of FGs projection systems, ZiPS by Dan Szymborski (or something close to that).  His projections are exclusively a massive number crunching exercise where ZiPS predicts future WAR based on numbers so far.  As DS puts it

Quote
ZiPS is a useful tool, but the projections, whether for prospects or for baseball as a whole, are not intended to replace scouting. The purpose of ZiPS is to get the best answers possible from the data available, not necessarily to be the one-ring-to-prove-them-all-unified-field-theory-giant-Katamari-Damacy-ball of prognostication. ZiPS doesn’t see some things that scouts do. But by being able to process large amounts of data and instantly put those numbers into context and make adjustments, ZiPS also sees some things that scouts can’t. Computers and humans have different strengths, after all.
...
Naturally, there is a lot of agreement between ZiPS and other lists when it comes to top prospects. Elite prospects tend to please both the scouts and the silicon, and 68 of this year’s ZiPS Top 100 overlap with the official FanGraphs Top 100. The ZiPS list should be used in addition to other lists, not in a mutually exclusive fashion.

I’ve adjusted the methodology of the rankings slightly, going with the interquartile mean for career WAR rather than the 50th percentile projection. That’s because, with the benefit of hindsight, it consistently slightly outperforms the 50th percentile rankings (though none of the actual rankings will be retconned for the ZiPS Cinematic Universe). ZiPS will still have a tendency to like high-floor, low-ceiling players more than scouts do. This is understandable given the nature of projections; scouts are optimistic by nature, traveling to Hagerstown or Kannapolis to see something special, not just to find a useful fourth outfielder or innings-eating fourth starter.

Based on that description, you'd expect guys who have hit the majors and seem like they will stick or expected call ups to rank ahead of guys who are further away with jaw-dropping potential due to their tools.  So, it is little surprise that, even with FGs rep for being data oriented, this list looks a lot different than the evaluation yesterday, especially w/r/t the toolsy A ballers in our system, and even worse if the A baller missed time due to injury.  Youd also expect to see a few of the players who aren't thought of as keys to the future but likely to get some time show up.  And you'd be right, because you are pretty insightful.

The Nats who make ZiPS top 100:

42.  Robert Hassell III
55. James Wood
62. Cade Cavalli

Cavalli is same spot on both lists, but yes, the big riser is Hassell, House and Green disappear, and there's a big "hold on a bit" on Wood.

Some names appear as you go by position.

Pineda is the #10 catcher.

No surprise infield prospects for Alu fans (He's not there).

Hassell is #7 OF, Wood #10. Wood is due an explanation:

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The most notable projection here may be how low Nats outfielder James Wood ranks. In this case, ZiPS is designed to be skeptical about players with little minor league time — and completely agnostic about high schoolers yet to debut — and it’s actually fairly impressive that he ranks this highly. If all goes well, Wood has an easy path to the ZiPS overall top 10 in 2024. That is, if he doesn’t blow through the minors quickly; the Nats were certainly willing to give Juan Soto a chance very, very quickly, and if he continues to hit like this, it’ll be hard to not use Wood similarly.

Cavalli is the #16 pitcher; no others in the top 30.  I have a feeling that would be different but for Henry's TOS.


Online JCA-CrystalCity

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comments have a nice back and forth between posts and DS regarding Alu.  Bottom line is he was borderline top 100 with a higher median 3 ear projection of 8.3 WAR.

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scottsjunk1981:

Is he in the top 200? And why is he so far below, for example, Spencer Steer, who is the same age, plays the same position and has a lower median Zips in each of the next 3 years? If this a median / interquartile mean oddity, does that mean that most of Alu’s value comes from long-ish tail upside?
...

Dan Szymborski:
He’s not far from the top 100. ZiPS actually sees more upside from Steer than Alu, which is why Steer made it and Alu didn’t.


scottsjunk1981:

Interesting – so Alu has a lower bust rate / outperforms in the 10-20th percentile outcomes, and that’s bringing down Steer’s median, but the interquartile mean lets his realistic upside (60-75th percentile) shine through. That makes sense.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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Finally, one more for the mining of FG: picks of players who may be in the top 100 next year. Vacquero makes the list (selected by Eric Longenhagen) as a guy with massive tools but too little stateside experience, too young, and too distant from the majors to be reliably projected.

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This is the prospect phenotype comprised of the high-variance players, risky toolsheds who are far away from the big leagues but who have gigantic ceilings. ... Vaquero is the Platonic Ideal of this prospect category, an uber-projectable outfielder built like Justin Jefferson who stands a chance to break out at basically any time.
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/picks-to-click-who-we-expect-to-make-the-2024-top-100/

Offline nobleisthyname

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If he wants to turn into poor man's Adam Eaton, I'd be happy.

That's an even better comparison.

Online imref

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Offline Natsinpwc

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Makes me wonder. Is Darren Baker still with the club?

Offline Slateman

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Makes me wonder. Is Darren Baker still with the club?
Yep just turned 24

Online imref

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Makes me wonder. Is Darren Baker still with the club?
had a hit the other day IIRC

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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That's an even better comparison.

Too bad, because I think people underestimate or forget how good Markakis was.  He got that contract from Atlanta for a reason.

Hassell's real boom case is if he can play CF.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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Too bad, because I think people underestimate or forget how good Markakis was.  He got that contract from Atlanta for a reason.
I remember when he and RZ got long term contracts at the same time, Sheinin or another writer wrote a piece about the teams locking in franchise players and how this would add to the area rivalry.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Too bad, because I think people underestimate or forget how good Markakis was.  He got that contract from Atlanta for a reason.

Hassell's real boom case is if he can play CF.

Totally. That's probably a 90th percentile outcome for Hassell.

Online imref

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BBA posted their next ten Nats prospects to watch beyond the top 30.  Anyone have a subscription and can post the list?

https://www.baseballamerica.com/stories/10-nationals-prospects-to-watch-beyond-the-top-30/

Online imref

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we're # 10! https://www.mlb.com/news/farm-system-rankings-2023-preseason

Quote
10. Washington Nationals
2022 midseason rank: 15
2022 preseason rank: 23
2021 midseason rank: 20
2021 preseason rank: 30

Top 100 prospects: James Wood, OF (No. 17); Robert Hassell III, OF (No. 35), Elijah Green, OF (No. 46); Cade Cavalli, RHP (No. 58)

The Washington farm system needed to get better after the Juan Soto trade, and adding two Top 100 talents in Wood and Hassell certainly helped. The former’s launch into becoming one of the toolsiest outfield prospects in the Minors further fueled the Nats’ move into the Top 10 for the first time since the 2016 midseason list. Another five-tool talent in Cristhian Vaquero and fireballer Jarlin Susana await their opportunities to jump into the Top 100 in 2023, and the No. 2 overall pick in July should fortify the group even more.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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I think House with health will be a top 100 by mid-season if not the end of the year. Also, if Henry is legitimately clear after TOS, then he should put up great numbers and perhaps replace Cavalli on lists. Cavalli I think has to fall after his TJS. his time to the majors and certainty will be impacted.

Offline Senatorswin

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we're # 10! https://www.mlb.com/news/farm-system-rankings-2023-preseason

When you click on "read more" on this link it does give a scenario on most of the Nats prospects on how they could fail. They say Wood is the most likely to succeed but finds question marks on most the rest. Still, I guess that goes for any young prospect.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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When you click on "read more" on this link it does give a scenario on most of the Nats prospects on how they could fail. They say Wood is the most likely to succeed but finds question marks on most the rest. Still, I guess that goes for any young prospect.
If you go to the Fangraphs top 112, you click on the expand tab in the write up on each player, and they put a bar chart of probable outcomes.  As I noted in one of the replies above, Wood's chart looks like a ski jump (highest end are the more likely outcomes, with a drop for outcomes like bench / utility guy, and then a slight up hill for bust scenarios). Most of the other guys they rate are closer to downhills going the opposite way. They have bar charts for Green, Hassell, House, and Cavalli.  Cavalli, for example, they rate as 40% bust, 25% less than average, 15% average or a bit better, and 12%/8% occasional to frequent all star.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2023-top-100-prospects/

By hitting the

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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https://blogs.fangraphs.com/a-starters-pistol-update-to-the-top-100-prospects-list-and-more-feat-dylan-dodd/

Longenhagen's updates. Taking account of Cavalli's TJS, he maintains his future value (a measure of potential) but drops to the back of players with similar (50) FV rankings because, as Longenhagen puts it, if given a choice among players with similar projections, you'd take the one with the cleaner injury history. TJS is well understood in terms of risk, so it doesn't generate so much uncertain as to negatively impact the FV.  HE also adds an evaluation of Thaddeus Ward, calling him a middle relief prospect with an above-average cutter and slider. 40 FV.

Offline Senatorswin

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https://blogs.fangraphs.com/a-starters-pistol-update-to-the-top-100-prospects-list-and-more-feat-dylan-dodd/

Longenhagen's updates. Taking account of Cavalli's TJS, he maintains his future value (a measure of potential) but drops to the back of players with similar (50) FV rankings because, as Longenhagen puts it, if given a choice among players with similar projections, you'd take the one with the cleaner injury history. TJS is well understood in terms of risk, so it doesn't generate so much uncertain as to negatively impact the FV.  HE also adds an evaluation of Thaddeus Ward, calling him a middle relief prospect with an above-average cutter and slider. 40 FV.

Thaddeus was giving up some major solid contact on Saturday. Hopefully he settles down.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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OF the Nats top 20 prospects per MLB pipeline, 7 are assigned to F-burg, 4 to Wilmington, 2 to Harrisburg, 5 are unassigned (mostly injured plus Vacquero in extended spring) and 1 (Ward) is on the MLB roster.

https://www.mlb.com/nationals/news/where-nationals-top-prospects-are-starting-2023-season?t=mlb-pipeline-coverage

Rochester and Harrisburg have 7 of the 21-30 on the list, plus 2 injured / unassigned (Pineda, Aldo Ramirez).

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https://blogs.fangraphs.com/washington-nationals-top-31-prospects-2023/

Longenhagen's profile hits. 

1 60 (Wood)
2 50s (house, Cavalli)
1 45+ (Vacquero)
4 45s (Henry, Millas, Hassell, Susana)
5 40+ (Baker, Lile, Green, Rutledge, Bennett)
##14-22 are 40s, ##23-31 are 35+ based on future value.

Millas and Baker seem to be really reflecting and rewarding performance.

Seth Shuman, another piece from the Harrison Gomes deal, comes in at #18, while Thaddeus Ward is #19.

Offline nobleisthyname

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Being ranked 17th is pretty disappointing after all the trades, though to be fair that doesn't include Abrams, Ruiz, Gray, and Gore.

Offline Smithian

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Being ranked 17th is pretty disappointing after all the trades, though to be fair that doesn't include Abrams, Ruiz, Gray, and Gore.
That seemed to low until you read it. Fangraphs looks like they are already done with Elijah Green and they've written Hassel off. If you are already ready to dismiss Green's upside and don't consider Hassel a real prospect, what is left in the system isn't exciting.

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a lot of guys they were higher on have hit rough patches, like De La Rosa, Lara, Cronin, and several other pitchers.  The other thing that is fair is that a lot of our pitchers are injured so it is hard to rank them highly.