Author Topic: How would you feel if the Phillies win it all this year  (Read 1101 times)

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Offline Count Walewski

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Unpopular opinion here but I'd like to see Bryce win a ring. He put in a lot of great seasons in Washington and the breakup was mutual and amicable: from his rookie season he had been open and transparent about wanting to make as much money as an FA as possible, the Nationals did not have the money to re-sign him, and the Nationals did not need to re-sign him because they had Juan Soto putting up similar numbers at the same position for a tiny fraction of the salary.

Plus, the other option is the Astros, the Hostis humani generis of MLB.

Offline Mattionals

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Since I live in SEPA, what I will say is that fair-weather Philadelphia fans are the worst. The diehards aren't actual jerks, it's the drunk, band-wagon morons that really give Philadelphia sports their label. Every fan base has these morons, but Philly has that "us versus the world" mentality and other fans will tolerate the behavior to an extent.

Also, for me it's Philly all the way. Two things play into that. Bregman and Altuve are still on the roster, and thus are still sour grapes from the garbage can scandal. Number two is that the Astros are like the Dodgers, making the WS lots of times recently, and I can't root for the "juggernaut". Unless of course it was the Nats being that juggernaut.

Offline UMDNats

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I don't really have a problem with the Phillies winning and am so removed from the actual area of Philadelphia and Phillies fans that their obnoxiousness wouldn't affect me at all.

Don't really care about the Astros either and am rooting for Dusty to get a ring.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Since I live in SEPA, what I will say is that fair-weather Philadelphia fans are the worst. The diehards aren't actual jerks, it's the drunk, band-wagon morons that really give Philadelphia sports their label. Every fan base has these morons, but Philly has that "us versus the world" mentality and other fans will tolerate the behavior to an extent.

Also, for me it's Philly all the way. Two things play into that. Bregman and Altuve are still on the roster, and thus are still sour grapes from the garbage can scandal. Number two is that the Astros are like the Dodgers, making the WS lots of times recently, and I can't root for the "juggernaut". Unless of course it was the Nats being that juggernaut.
You kind of hit it on the head.  But I think there are many die hard fans who embrace the we are the worst fans in the world because it never goes away.  And then becomes a vicious circle. Many wear it with pride. Jon Heyman has an article in the Ny Post today where he writes that the Astros don’t deserve the treatment they will get because it has been 5 years. In the same article he mentions booing Santa Claus which was now almost 60 years ago. LOL. Apparently that irony did not catch him. Of course he also gives Altuve a clean pass for the whole affair because Jose said he did not participate. It’s Heyman I guess.

Looks like rain all night. Will they play?  The right thing to do would be to postpone and play the next three days iin CBP and then Saturday and Sunday in Houston if necessary. Of course that will not happen. Maybe they could do a 7-inning doubleheader tomorrow.

Offline aspenbubba

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I can't stand all Philadelphia sports because of their fans.
Can't argue with that logic!!

Offline Chelsea_Phil

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I hated Philly ever since the body bag game.  And gross city, on the same sewer lever as b’more.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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I hated Philly ever since the body bag game.  And gross city, on the same sewer lever as b’more.

Which makes New York, what, the core of the Earth in terms of sewer level?

Offline Chelsea_Phil

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Which makes New York, what, the core of the Earth in terms of sewer level?
Si senor.


Offline Natsinpwc

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Former Phillies announcer the late Harry Kalas originally broadcast Astros games in the 1960s. His son Todd does the Astros games now. Scott Frantzke the current Phillies radio ply by play is a Dallas native. I will not hold that against him.

Offline Five Banners

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Jon Heyman has an article in the Ny Post today where he writes that the Astros don’t deserve the treatment they will get because it has been 5 years. In the same article he mentions booing Santa Claus which was now almost 60 years ago. LOL. Apparently that irony did not catch him. Of course he also gives Altuve a clean pass for the whole affair because Jose said he did not participate. It’s Heyman I guess.



Really, Heyman?

https://nypost.com/2022/10/30/world-series-astros-dont-deserve-what-phillies-fans-will-dish-out/

“Anyway, let’s lay off the Astros now. I understand some folks are annoyed that their players technically went unpunished in the 2017 scandal in which an intricate cheating system was used leading up to the organization’s lone World Series championship.

“Technically” went unpunished? Manfred had given sufficient notice after the 2017 Red Sox Apple Watch matter the players and their association that stricter penalties along these lines should be expected if any further violations in this vein were uncovered. Manfred could’ve conceivably used the best business interest in baseball clause to follow through on the player side of discipline. Significantly, he could’ve laid off the precious player’s association angle by using the clause to vacate the 2017 title. I mean, they blew off an entire World Series in 1994; at least this would’ve appeared to fit the Asterisk’s crime.

Instead, none of that. Hunch and Cora essentially took one year vacations (Beltran can count his money during his extended one), and that was largely about it. Even the so-called apologies seemed often to be non-apologies and exercises and spin. If anything, this allowed an ‘us against the world’ mindset as many seem to double down and refused to budge an inch going forward.


“But it’s been five years. I’d say, considering culpability, their current players have taken enough abuse.”

What “abuse“ have they taken — and what didn’t they bring on themselves? At 2020 spring training, anyone making signs etc. not approved by the Burgermeisters were kicked out, no? After that, the chance for people to really confront the teams with booing, clown horns, trash can thumps, or however they wanted to voice their displeasure were effectively muted because of the shutdown. Once again, the team was able to just concentrate on baseball, insulate themselves from the results of what they did, and escape having to face the music and a level of a check on their behavior.

Meanwhile, which of the announcers and sports writers were even making a big deal out of this? Whatever happened to the in-depth reports that people like were reportedly going to collaborate on? After the shutdown, all the pressure related to that seem to diffuse. This arguably would be similar to the White Sox winning pennants in 1921 and 1922, penalty free.


“Take Jose Altuve for instance. He didn’t even partake in the cheating, and he’s booed like no one else. He specifically requested not to receive the pitch info gathered by nefarious means and relayed by banging on trash cans. (Yes, it’s true the whole episode was as unseemly as its sounds.)”

First, you have to take the word of either the 2019 ALCS shy guy or his collaborators, specifically Carlos Correa, who I recall reportedly made this assertion. Let’s just ignore the legitimate precedence of the Black Sox scandal that silent collaboration was no excuse, no?

Even if in the best case that Altuve didn't use the real-time sign system for batting (or for stealing — though video reportedly emerged of his stealing second successfully after a tell-tale thump) — Altuve knowing about it and giving approval to his lineup partners benefiting from it benefitted him directly both for team performance and individual accomplishments like the MVP award. That would seem to work against any notions of a cleanly played game — laughably echoed by Heyman now — of an earned MVP award, and of gameplay integrity. Let's glance at the lineup on the day of the Farquhar game:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/HOU/HOU201709210.shtml

Altuve batted third, preceded by Springer and Reddick and followed by Correa, Marwin Gonzalez, Bregman, Beltran, etc. He's literally surrounded by real-time sign stealers, and -- for those believing Correa's description -- he knows about it. By Correa’s (and Heyman’s) own scenario, how is thot remotely playing the game clean?

Even those who protested that they just did their own thing and put up big numbers for the White Sox in the 1919 World Series reportedly knew of the fix and/or received payments and did nothing to prevent their team from perpetrating their scheme. Evidently. MLB did not view their game play as clean and adjudged the integrity of the game to be at issue.


“The commissioner couldn’t punish the players since he needed their testimony to get to the bottom of the sordid scandal.”

Had actual evidence been brought forth and disclosed other than an arguably vague report that seemed conveniently to not focus so much on 2018 and 2019, that might not ring quite  as hollow as it seemed to ring afterwards. Instead it seemed to resemble a Goodell-ish effort to contain the scandal and the information therein and control the narrative. Heyman or anyone else is welcome to dispute that by addressing the facts, rather than appearing to dance around the elephant in the room of unpunished cheating in an era where antitrust-riffic baseball has persisted, while the sport has increasingly seemed to cozy up to sports gambling in enormous ways.


Relying on any passage of time as well as “it’s baseball, we grew up with it, history” tropes as a rationale to look away from such matters to me seems massively inappropriate, let alone dangerous to the game. But hey, he, Verducci, Pasan, and others that IIRC seem to take the pedal off the gas on corresponding punishment got paid in the short-term.

Plus, why would there be any level of respect or interest in an organization so unscathed from what they did that winning this would be officially codified as their second title and spun as bookends to a version of a dynasty? I’ve heard some Astros fans act like the main issue was perception from others of their not being talented enough to get the job done in 2017, and any win would justify that they were talented enough to do that both then and now. The issue of having a title under the belt of the team and having gotten over the hump is a huge one in baseball and other sports. Being allowed to build on that on a problematic foundation. How is that good for the sport? I guess we’re all supposed to move on from that, and not let any such thoughts or considerations interfere with knee-jerk , lockstep, ‘flags fly forever’ respect.

If "the idea of an asterisk or asking for a piece of metal back seems like a futile act", why should anyone particularly merit what people willing to cheat towards achieving that goal do in subsequent competitions for other ones? Again, why should any respect be ceded for those who appear to hide behind all sorts of enablers too limit any punishment that would’ve curtailed their earning power and ability to go after further accolades and affirmation of their supposed accomplishments?


it’s bad enough that the approach from the commissioner and the owners have allowed this scenario with a team and participants directly associated with a cheating scandal that appears to directly harm the integrity of the game. In the two actual seasons of largely post-pandemic baseball, two pennants have been captured by that team, resulting in the “fall classic“ having to feature all of them two years in a row.

Now, a national sports writer seems to want to diminish any stain, stench, hard feelings, etc. created by this evident kicking the can down the road and moving on approach? Arguably, he wants to apparently do that by putting it on fans to just close their eyes and dismiss all the concerns about game integrity? Really? So the fans would be the problem if they have a real big issue with what’s transpiring and aren’t quiet about it — perhaps also being encouraged to tip the cap to any “accomplishments“ (sic) of the Asterisks? Really?

Offline Natsinpwc

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Five:  You summed up I think how most feel about the Astros. The organization and the franchise in general went unpunished. Only the GM and manager were punished. And Alex Cora.  Even the recent Maldonado bat issue shows they flaunt the rules. The team itself undoubtedly know the bat is illegal even if the player did not. There basically was no punishment.  Probably they and many other teams are working on ways to unencrypt the pitch count as we speak. Why not? Will not be any punishment for the players.

Offline skippy1999

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I'd be happy for Bryce.

Offline nfotiu

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Less bad than a couple of years ago. The Lerner’s benign neglect has me caring less over all
Agreed.   2-3 years ago, it would have been tough.  Now, I feel ok pulling for him a bit.   I'd like to see Dusty win though.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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I'd like to see Schwarbs win another, but Bryce fail to win his first, if that were possible.  :hysterical:

Offline miller10

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I remember their fans trashing Nats park on opening day. I will never root for any team from that city (unless maybe if the Flyers were playing the Pens).

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Five:  You summed up I think how most feel about the Astros. The organization and the franchise in general went unpunished. Only the GM and manager were punished. And Alex Cora.
Beltran lost his manager's job.  Is he working in baseball now?

Offline Natsinpwc

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Beltran lost his manager's job.  Is he working in baseball now?
Not sure.

Offline Kevrock

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  • That’s gonna be a no from me, doge.
Beltran lost his manager's job.  Is he working in baseball now?

In media. And he's going to be a great manager when he lands somewhere. Can't believe Hinch got a job before him.  If we could compete at all, we'd be lucky the Mets canned him.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Not sure.
checked.  He was on the Yes broadcasts this year.  I think I've seen speculation he may be a manager candidate now since both Hinch and Cora are out of the doghouse.

Offline HondoKillebrew

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Time for Dusty to get his ring as a manager. 

Offline Duke of Earl

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Time for Dusty to get his ring as a manager.
He'd have two by now, if we'd kept him.

Offline Slateman

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He'd have two by now, if we'd kept him.
:lmao: Dusty wouldn't have gotten out of the WC round in DC. It literally took the Astros Dusty-proofing the team to get him a WS ring. And that took three tries.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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:lmao: Dusty wouldn't have gotten out of the WC round in DC. It literally took the Astros Dusty-proofing the team to get him a WS ring. And that took three tries.
I love Dusty as a regular season manager, but after 10/1 or so, I would send him on trip to Italy to sample wines for a month or so, hang at jazz clubs,  and view foliage.  I would take just about any disciple of Terry Francona - Tim Bogar even - over Dusty at that point.  I'd even think about John Farrell. 

Offline Slateman

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I love Dusty as a regular season manager, but after 10/1 or so, I would send him on trip to Italy to sample wines for a month or so, hang at jazz clubs,  and view foliage.  I would take just about any disciple of Terry Francona - Tim Bogar even - over Dusty at that point.  I'd even think about John Farrell. 
We hire Davey in 2016 (when we interviewed him) we end up with at least two NLCS appearances. Probably a WS title