Author Topic: New rules for 2023  (Read 239 times)

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Offline imref

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New rules for 2023
« Topic Start: September 09, 2022, 12:33:30 AM »
Pitch clock, two pickoff attempt limit, and shift limits.

https://news.yahoo.com/mlb-set-announce-pitch-clocks-223839198.html

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #1: September 09, 2022, 07:04:21 AM »
Do they understand that by reducing shifts and thereby increasing offense they probably offset any time gains from the pitch clock.  I thought the thing about the infielders having to start in the actual infield is very interesting also. Maybe as significant as not allowing more than two on one side of 2B.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #2: September 09, 2022, 08:56:26 AM »
I don't mind the pitch clock or tinkering with the size of the bases.  I think the all fielders must start with a foot on the dirt probably would have eliminated most of the shifting without formally saying you must start balanced.  I think the key to shifts against lefties is the ability to play the second baseman or the shifted infielder on the grass deep enough to get to more balls but still make the throw to first.  I think the most frustrating thing about a play out of a shift is the one hop liner to the deep infielder that otherwise would have gone for a hit.  Even under these rules, I don't think you are going to see more singles rolling through the middle of the diamond because you will still have up the middle positioning for the opposite side middle infielder (2nd baseman near the bag for righties, SS near the bag for lefties).

TBH, I'm a fan of the shift so do not like its elimination.  I even think I've started to see more good hitters hitting away from the shift and otherwise taking advantage of it (e.g., a lefty bunting to the left side when leading off and down 2 runs).

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #3: September 09, 2022, 09:00:42 AM »
Oh, and as for the pickoff limits, you can make a 3rd pickoff attempt as long as you get the guy out.  If it fails, then it is a balk, I think. Dunno if a runner on another base advances too.  I imagine that it still might be worth trying to pick a guy like Robles, who has a high success rate when he goes but is easy to pick off. 3 good moves should get him if you are really concerned about him, and if you can't get him with 3 good moves, then he was probably going to steal on you anyway. What the change eliminates is the soft pick off attempt that is supposed to keep a guy honest.

Offline Five Banners

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #4: September 09, 2022, 09:16:21 AM »
The pickoff limit again seems to be an arbitrary and ill-advised move that could inordinately benefit those inclined to run by eliminating a legitimate game strategy. If they really want to do some tweaks there, how about integrating the play clock element, making each play a lot shorter than they normally would be with the runner laying on the ground, the field are trying to push the guy off the bag, the long reset, Etc?

 In the latter case, just as can be done with foul balls and the endless game stops associated with that and in between every at bat, you’re addressing the root cause. Try dithering and adjusting your shoulder pads in football and your head bands in basketball, and you get a penalty or a turnover. Give the Umps the power to enforce the clock, make adjustments if you need to, and go from there.


Offline Senatorswin

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #5: September 09, 2022, 10:43:19 AM »
I like the new rules, especially the shifting. The average batting average is .243. MLB had to do something. The hitters rarely try to hit the other way to beat the shift.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #6: September 09, 2022, 11:11:54 AM »
The strange thing to me is that they tested the pitch clock in MILB but not the anti-shift and pickoff rules. Why? 

Offline imref

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #7: September 09, 2022, 11:49:35 AM »
yeah, i really wonder how the pickoff rule will work in practice. Suppose after attempt #2 the pitcher throws over and there's an error on the play, is that a balk?

multiple pickoff attempts are really the worst thing in baseball, but i'm not sure if the cure is worse than the disease.

Offline imref

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #8: September 09, 2022, 11:50:51 AM »
Do they understand that by reducing shifts and thereby increasing offense they probably offset any time gains from the pitch clock.  I thought the thing about the infielders having to start in the actual infield is very interesting also. Maybe as significant as not allowing more than two on one side of 2B.

i assume the added offense is the benefit they are looking for, even if it means adding time to the game

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #9: September 09, 2022, 07:55:16 PM »
I like the new rules, especially the shifting. The average batting average is .243. MLB had to do something. The hitters rarely try to hit the other way to beat the shift.

Having watched dozens of games with these rules implemented, the cumulative effect is a product that is much, much more pleasant to watch.  The mere elimination of human rain delay relievers (hi, Kenley Jansen! freak you too, Cory Gearrin!) has been a vast improvement at the minor league level. 

yeah, i really wonder how the pickoff rule will work in practice. Suppose after attempt #2 the pitcher throws over and there's an error on the play, is that a balk?

multiple pickoff attempts are really the worst thing in baseball, but i'm not sure if the cure is worse than the disease.

Yes, it's a balk.  If you don't get the guy out, it's a balk. 

Do they understand that by reducing shifts and thereby increasing offense they probably offset any time gains from the pitch clock.  I thought the thing about the infielders having to start in the actual infield is very interesting also. Maybe as significant as not allowing more than two on one side of 2B.

They've tested all these in the minors over the past 2 years.  With all of them implemented, games have been >20 minutes shorter on average.

The strange thing to me is that they tested the pitch clock in MILB but not the anti-shift and pickoff rules. Why?

Don't know where you got that idea.  They're all active this year, even if not all in AAA.  Shifts have been illegal in AA since last season, as has the feet-on-the-infield rule, and I saw a balk called for a third pickoff attempt as recently as last week.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #10: September 11, 2022, 05:32:30 PM »
David Laurila is not a fan of the limits on shifts.

Quote
Count me among the millions who hate the new shift rule that MLB plans to implement next year. Not allowing teams to position their defenders (save for the pitcher and catcher) anywhere they want on the field, which they’ve been free to do for upwards of 150 years, is simply a terrible idea. Moreover, it’s not just penalizing teams for being smart while lifting a middle finger to tradition. At a time where a majority of fans want to see more balls put into play, hitters will now be further incentivized to drive balls to the pull side, with power in mind.

MLB’s powers-that-be have made number of questionable-at-best changes in recent years. Along with the introduction of a Manfred-man in extra innings, severely limiting shift might the worst of them.
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/sunday-notes-rangers-infielder-brad-miller-embraces-man-city/

Interesting point about rewarding hitters for pulling the ball as they go for homers rather than using the whole field and just trying to put the ball in play.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #11: September 11, 2022, 05:36:47 PM »
Minor point but it will keep teams from putting 5 infielders in at end of games with bases loaded and no outs. 

Offline Dave in Fairfax

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #12: September 11, 2022, 08:19:31 PM »
David Laurila is not a fan of the limits on shifts.
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/sunday-notes-rangers-infielder-brad-miller-embraces-man-city/

Interesting point about rewarding hitters for pulling the ball as they go for homers rather than using the whole field and just trying to put the ball in play.
Isn't the whole point of the overuse of the shift in recent years that hitters have already been trying to pull the ball and hit homers rather than using the whole field and putting the ball in play?

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #13: September 11, 2022, 08:49:19 PM »
Isn't the whole point of the overuse of the shift in recent years that hitters have already been trying to pull the ball and hit homers rather than using the whole field and putting the ball in play?
yes, so his point is that this will do nothing to encourage using the whole field. It will lead to rewarding trying just to pull because there's more of a reward for it.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #14: September 11, 2022, 11:18:15 PM »
David Laurila is not a fan of the limits on shifts.
https://blogs.fangraphs.com/sunday-notes-rangers-infielder-brad-miller-embraces-man-city/

Interesting point about rewarding hitters for pulling the ball as they go for homers rather than using the whole field and just trying to put the ball in play.

In a shocker, someone at Fangraphs hates something done to counteract the influence of data-driven decision-making on the game.

He can sit and freaking spin.

yes, so his point is that this will do nothing to encourage using the whole field. It will lead to rewarding trying just to pull because there's more of a reward for it.

Has he ever played baseball or watched a minor league game in the last two years?  Like, people try to pull the ball because that's how most hitters are best able to drive the ball.  The problem with the Fangraphs-created world is that everyone tries to pull the ball because they're selling out for power.  Because everyone was trying to pull the ball while selling out for power, we got shifts. 

Take away the shifts, guys still sell out for power, except now when they hit the ball hard but don't elevate it, they get a hit.  But also, the guys who don't - lefty line drive hitters - don't get punished for the fact that they can't hit the ball over Cesar Hernandez playing mid-right field.

Like I said, he can sit and freaking spin.  I'm really, really tired of these pencil necks worshipping three true outcomes.  It creates a sport that is unpleasant to consume in anyway other than an ex post spreadsheet, which of course they breakdown with a mouse in one hand and their other hand also occupied. 

Frankly, I'd love to end the reign of the Fangraphs club by moving all the fences back thirty feet across the board.  Take homers mostly out of the game and they'll go away after even they get through their translucent foreheads that baseball consisting mostly of walks and strikeouts (combined with groundouts to right field) isn't very fun.
 

Offline imref

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #15: September 11, 2022, 11:59:24 PM »
Elvir, don’t hold back. Tell us how you really feel :)

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #16: September 12, 2022, 09:48:06 AM »
In a shocker, someone at Fangraphs hates something done to counteract the influence of data-driven decision-making on the game.

He can sit and freaking spin.

Has he ever played baseball or watched a minor league game in the last two years?  Like, people try to pull the ball because that's how most hitters are best able to drive the ball.  The problem with the Fangraphs-created world is that everyone tries to pull the ball because they're selling out for power.  Because everyone was trying to pull the ball while selling out for power, we got shifts. 

Take away the shifts, guys still sell out for power, except now when they hit the ball hard but don't elevate it, they get a hit.  But also, the guys who don't - lefty line drive hitters - don't get punished for the fact that they can't hit the ball over Cesar Hernandez playing mid-right field.

Like I said, he can sit and freaking spin. I'm really, really tired of these pencil necks worshipping three true outcomes.  It creates a sport that is unpleasant to consume in anyway other than an ex post spreadsheet, which of course they breakdown with a mouse in one hand and their other hand also occupied. 

Frankly, I'd love to end the reign of the Fangraphs club by moving all the fences back thirty feet across the board.  Take homers mostly out of the game and they'll go away after even they get through their translucent foreheads that baseball consisting mostly of walks and strikeouts (combined with groundouts to right field) isn't very fun.
 
you kind of lost me on the bolded language. His point is the exact opposite of what you say.  He's not worshipping TTO.  He's complaining that the rule change will feed TTO by encouraging selling out for power (pulling).  Maybe he's wrong and guys were selling out before the shifts, which is why we have shifts, but it isn't TTO worship. 

We've never gotten back to the approach of using the whole field even if it costs power.  I don't know if this rule change does it.

I/M/O, keeping at 4 fielders with both feet on the skin of the infield probably would have killed the problem you mention with shifting because you lose the ability of the short right field guy to get to liners and throw guys out at first.  Even with the change, you aren't going to see an impact on grounders up the middle because the defenses will line up with a guy slightly on the oppo side of 2nd base, deeper than the bag, able to range over to get to balls up the middle.

Oh, Bobby Valentine, that idiot, had a interesting point last night.  Why not allow a limited number of shifts rather than shifts on every AB?  If you had 5 a game, for example, it would introduce some strategy on the shift's use. 


Offline dracnal

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #17: September 12, 2022, 10:00:01 AM »
The reason it plays into TTO is because batters are going to pull the ball to the right, period. They were doing it before the shift, which is why we have the shift, and yet still kept doing so during the shift, because it led to more power. If you take away the shift, you won't change batter behavior one whit, but you will suddenly have balls in play that weren't when a shift was on. Therefore, more opportunities each game to watch guys run after balls, scoop them up, and throw them places. I'm with Elvir that watching guys do things is a lot more fun than watching a guy either whack the ball out of the park, miss the ball until he sits down, or stare at the ball until he gets a free base.

Offline nfotiu

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #18: September 12, 2022, 10:15:56 AM »
you kind of lost me on the bolded language. His point is the exact opposite of what you say.  He's not worshipping TTO.  He's complaining that the rule change will feed TTO by encouraging selling out for power (pulling).  Maybe he's wrong and guys were selling out before the shifts, which is why we have shifts, but it isn't TTO worship. 

We've never gotten back to the approach of using the whole field even if it costs power.  I don't know if this rule change does it.

I/M/O, keeping at 4 fielders with both feet on the skin of the infield probably would have killed the problem you mention with shifting because you lose the ability of the short right field guy to get to liners and throw guys out at first.  Even with the change, you aren't going to see an impact on grounders up the middle because the defenses will line up with a guy slightly on the oppo side of 2nd base, deeper than the bag, able to range over to get to balls up the middle.

Oh, Bobby Valentine, that idiot, had a interesting point last night.  Why not allow a limited number of shifts rather than shifts on every AB?  If you had 5 a game, for example, it would introduce some strategy on the shift's use. 



That would seem tough to implement and police.

Baseball was great for its natural balance and lack of rules.   I hate that the state of the game requires all these convoluted rules.

Shifting seemed fine when it was used sparingly against a guy who they know always pulls or whatever.  When fielders started adjusting like a video game to exact data based positions every batter and sometimes every pitch, that's when it started ruining the game.    I don't know how you roll that back though.

I wish some of these rule changes figured out a way to encourage starting pitchers going deeper into games.    The DH gives no incentive to keep a pitcher in past once or twice through the lineup.    The continuing shrinking of foul territory makes it a lot easier to foul off a bunch of pitches, which gets starting pitchers out earlier.   

Baseball used to have a nicer, natural rhythm to it.   You could usually count on some quick innings when facing the bottom of the lineup that included a pitcher and it was fun to watch starters in the 7th or later start to faulter and the weighty decisions about whether to pull him or keep him in.

We're trending to 3 true outcomes and nameless pitchers throwing 100+ mph for an inning or two a game until their arm falls off.   

I don't see any of these rules addressing any of that.  Long innings with lots of base runners are a fun part of baseball.   They don't need to worry about those long innings if they can bring back more short, quick innings to build up to them.       

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #19: September 12, 2022, 10:16:52 AM »
I’ve been opposed to the shift but resistance is futile and more ground balls getting through is fine.  I like the pitch clock the most and hope they can enforce it with these prima donnas who need to tick their shirts and pull of their batting gloves and fidget endlessly on the mound.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #20: September 12, 2022, 10:48:04 AM »
you kind of lost me on the bolded language. His point is the exact opposite of what you say.  He's not worshipping TTO.  He's complaining that the rule change will feed TTO by encouraging selling out for power (pulling).  Maybe he's wrong and guys were selling out before the shifts, which is why we have shifts, but it isn't TTO worship. 

We've never gotten back to the approach of using the whole field even if it costs power.  I don't know if this rule change does it.

I/M/O, keeping at 4 fielders with both feet on the skin of the infield probably would have killed the problem you mention with shifting because you lose the ability of the short right field guy to get to liners and throw guys out at first.  Even with the change, you aren't going to see an impact on grounders up the middle because the defenses will line up with a guy slightly on the oppo side of 2nd base, deeper than the bag, able to range over to get to balls up the middle.

Oh, Bobby Valentine, that idiot, had a interesting point last night.  Why not allow a limited number of shifts rather than shifts on every AB?  If you had 5 a game, for example, it would introduce some strategy on the shift's use.

TBF, the post immediately after yours basically provided the answer.  But, to be clearer: nobody at Fangraphs complaining about MLB's rule changes is anything other than a rank hypocrite.  The rule changes were necessary because of Fangraphs and their ilk driving the world towards walks, strikeouts, and homers.   Them complaining about a lack of hitter using all fields or a lack of singles is like a dude named Dieter complaining in 1950 about how hard it is to find bagels.  Fangraphs made this world, so they can stand the freak aside while the people who actually like baseball set it back onto its axis.

And that's just not how hitting approaches in the minors have shifted (sorry) in response to the defensive rule changes.  Most guys still sell out for power, but suddenly there are more hits - and also more steals and a much quicker game due to the other rules.  All of those encourage guys putting the ball in play, regardless of direction.  And that benefits the guys who do use the field.  The rule change is at worst neutral as to TTO. 

You're right that teams still position up the middle.  But so what? That guy fields 22-hoppers past the pitcher, not line shots to dead right field.  I'm with you that the 4-on-the-dirt rule would have had the same effect, so I'm neutral as to which mechanism they chose, but they needed to do something to fix the problems the Fangraphs crowd created.  It's not just the trying to hit everything in the air.  It's the walks and strikeouts.  This encourages hitters to (checks notes) hit the ball.

If they can outlaw the Mike Fetters fake pickoff throw to third followed by turning around to first, not throwing, and then waddling around the mound for six minutes and then throwing a fastball right down the middle, they can fix this.

Next is on to fixing walks and strikeouts. 

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #21: September 12, 2022, 10:54:13 AM »
The DH gives no incentive to keep a pitcher in past once or twice through the lineup.    The continuing shrinking of foul territory makes it a lot easier to foul off a bunch of pitches, which gets starting pitchers out earlier.   

The next rule change I'd like to see is that the DH applies only to the starting pitcher.  Once he's out, the DH disappears.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #22: September 12, 2022, 03:09:58 PM »
Them complaining about a lack of hitter using all fields or a lack of singles is like a dude named Dieter complaining in 1950 about how hard it is to find bagels.
:lmao:  And this is from a Schprokets fan.

Quote
And that's just not how hitting approaches in the minors have shifted (sorry) in response to the defensive rule changes.  Most guys still sell out for power, but suddenly there are more hits - and also more steals and a much quicker game due to the other rules.  All of those encourage guys putting the ball in play, regardless of direction.  And that benefits the guys who do use the field.  The rule change is at worst neutral as to TTO. 
I'm gonna have to trust you, but I don't see how this benefits a guy using the whole field.  It just incentives topping the outside pitch, hitting groundballs to the pull side, on the freak chance you hit a liner, rather than just going with the pitch. 
By the way, I'm absolutely loving Joey Meneses driving the ball the opposite way.  It's like "why aren't you pulling and rolling over everything?" 
Quote

You're right that teams still position up the middle.  But so what? That guy fields 22-hoppers past the pitcher, not line shots to dead right field.  I'm with you that the 4-on-the-dirt rule would have had the same effect, so I'm neutral as to which mechanism they chose, but they needed to do something to fix the problems the Fangraphs crowd created.  It's not just the trying to hit everything in the air.  It's the walks and strikeouts.  This encourages hitters to (checks notes) hit the ball.
One thing I agree with you on is the big problem that needed fixing is the smashed ball that clears the infield only to get picked up by the deep second baseman / rover in the outfield.
Quote
If they can outlaw the Mike Fetters fake pickoff throw to third followed by turning around to first, not throwing, and then waddling around the mound for six minutes and then throwing a fastball right down the middle, they can fix this.

Next is on to fixing walks and strikeouts. 
Not complaining or even second guessing the pitch clock.  That's where the time is made up. 

you may strike the final word.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #23: September 12, 2022, 03:13:13 PM »
The next rule change I'd like to see is that the DH applies only to the starting pitcher.  Once he's out, the DH disappears.
this is a neat idea.  It would incentivize pitchers going deeper and lead to fewer bullpen games.

Offline nfotiu

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Re: New rules for 2023
« Reply #24: September 12, 2022, 03:18:40 PM »
this is a neat idea.  It would incentivize pitchers going deeper and lead to fewer bullpen games.
I like that idea a lot, but I think they missed the window when they were negotiating for a universal DH.   I guess it hurts the role and value of permanent DHs, but increases the importance of the bench.