Author Topic: Boras  (Read 652 times)

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Offline bluestreak

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Boras
« Topic Start: August 04, 2022, 07:46:52 AM »
I know the guy does the best by his clients, but I don’t care about that. It’s awful having a team that’s so full of his clients. Why do such a high percentage of our stars have him as representation? It’s not just because he has all the elite talent. One of the reason the braves will be competitive for years is because their stars aren’t represented by him.
And it would be one thing if there was a two way street, but the only time it seems we get a break are with contracts no one else would have signed anyway (second Strasburg extension, Wieters [spit]).

So why are we in bed with him so much? Or is it just in my head?

Edit: I realize this is whining.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Boras
« Reply #1: August 04, 2022, 08:29:21 AM »
I've been saying for a while that if I had a draft pick he represented, they would stay in the minors for as long as the CBA allows. You get his guys though arbitration, so teams should time those years in a way that works for them not the player

Online Smithian

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Re: Boras
« Reply #2: August 04, 2022, 08:37:37 AM »
Didn’t Scott Boras once claim he built the early 2010’s Nationals teams? Seems for a few years there was a beneficial relationship.

The guy does right by his clients and the power dynamic between team and player has skewed toward player past ten years. Players know what they’re any when they hire him. Blame the player, not him.

Offline mimontero88

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Re: Boras
« Reply #3: August 04, 2022, 08:38:36 AM »
I've been saying for a while that if I had a draft pick he represented, they would stay in the minors for as long as the CBA allows. You get his guys though arbitration, so teams should time those years in a way that works for them not the player
Oh yeah, that will totally solve the problem of players not wanting to stay with you :roll:

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Boras
« Reply #4: August 04, 2022, 08:47:03 AM »
I've been saying for a while that if I had a draft pick he represented, they would stay in the minors for as long as the CBA allows. You get his guys though arbitration, so teams should time those years in a way that works for them not the player

Or, alternatively, don’t draft his players.

Offline PowerBoater69

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Re: Boras
« Reply #5: August 04, 2022, 09:11:00 AM »
Ted Lerner thought that he had a working business relationship with Boras but it was really a pyramid scheme that wasn't sustainable, resulting in a souring of relations. Hard to say it wasn't worth it considering the playoff and WS success.

I agree with the thought that it is best to avoid drafting, trading for, or signing Boras clients. If a current player signs with Boras assume that player has no interest in staying with the team when he hits free agency. We don't need the type of guys that Boras attracts.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Boras
« Reply #6: August 04, 2022, 09:16:18 AM »
Whining or not, I feel like you have a point.

I'm also with the "just don't draft Boras clients" crowd, at this point.

Oh yeah, that will totally solve the problem of players not wanting to stay with you :roll:

It seems like they're typically not going to stay anyway, so what difference does it make?

Online Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Boras
« Reply #7: August 04, 2022, 09:16:19 AM »
I'm actually wondering about the other side of the coin.  How does Boras ethically represent so many players on the same team or in the same free agent class, who are fighting over the same pot of money? 

For example, there's a reasonable guess that the money for a Soto extension wasn't there because of money owed to Strasburg (and Scherzer, deferred); Correa got a worse contract because teams (well, team) had already paid guys like Seager and Semien; and so on.  For lawyers, those conflicts would likely be non-consentable, so it sorta astounds me that players put up with them.   

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Boras
« Reply #8: August 04, 2022, 09:19:59 AM »
I'm actually wondering about the other side of the coin.  How does Boras ethically represent so many players on the same team or in the same free agent class, who are fighting over the same pot of money? 

For example, there's a reasonable guess that the money for a Soto extension wasn't there because of money owed to Strasburg (and Scherzer, deferred); Correa got a worse contract because teams (well, team) had already paid guys like Seager and Semien; and so on.  For lawyers, those conflicts would likely be non-consentable, so it sorta astounds me that players put up with them.   

That's actually a really good point.  The problem is, any sort of solution would probably rest on MLB's ability to care about being ethical, and they've shown about as much capacity for that as Congress over the past 30 or so years.

Online nfotiu

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Re: Boras
« Reply #9: August 04, 2022, 09:24:25 AM »
One thing I've been wondering about Boras for a while is how he gets his players to all disregard any benefit of taking the money right now vs the risk of waiting 2-5 years for a marginally higher amount.   In some of these cases, they are saying no to 400-450 million guaranteed in hopes of 450-500, but risk getting a whole lot less if they have a career altering injury or hit a slump they can't get out of.   There's no way this can make logical sense at the individual level.    I can see it making sense at Boras's level.  He can take a hit if he maximizes everyone's value and one out of every 10 doesn't pan out.   

How does he convince his players to all disregard that risk?   I get they can get some insurance for a career ending injury, but is it going to pay out 500 million if Soto has a career ending or altering injury?   Does Boras take a 5% tax on everyone to put in a kitty that pays out when a player holding out for free agency is a bust?   Is that legal?   Would it be public knowledge?

It breaks the market factors of the CBA when he has his players disregard any benefit to re-signing.   It's his right to do so, but it is bad for baseball in the long run.   Teams losing their star players they've grown attached to kills fan bases.   Teams paying stars for years after their prime is not ideal for anyone either.     

Offline mimontero88

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Re: Boras
« Reply #10: August 04, 2022, 09:29:28 AM »
It seems like they're typically not going to stay anyway, so what difference does it make?
If you get a reputation for not doing right by your players, you can kiss your future free agent signings goodbye. These are still human beings. You mess with their career and earnings that much, and it's not only immoral, but also sends a message to every other player in baseball who might have otherwise considered playing for you.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Boras
« Reply #11: August 04, 2022, 09:30:32 AM »
One thing I've been wondering about Boras for a while is how he gets his players to all disregard any benefit of taking the money right now vs the risk of waiting 2-5 years for a marginally higher amount.   In some of these cases, they are saying no to 400-450 million guaranteed in hopes of 450-500, but risk getting a whole lot less if they have a career altering injury or hit a slump they can't get out of.   There's no way this can make logical sense at the individual level.    I can see it making sense at Boras's level.  He can take a hit if he maximizes everyone's value and one out of every 10 doesn't pan out.   

How does he convince his players to all disregard that risk?   I get they can get some insurance for a career ending injury, but is it going to pay out 500 million if Soto has a career ending or altering injury?   Does Boras take a 5% tax on everyone to put in a kitty that pays out when a player holding out for free agency is a bust?   Is that legal?   Would it be public knowledge?

It breaks the market factors of the CBA when he has his players disregard any benefit to re-signing.   It's his right to do so, but it is bad for baseball in the long run.   Teams losing their star players they've grown attached to kills fan bases.   Teams paying stars for years after their prime is not ideal for anyone either.     

I think that he either quietly insures them or he just plays into their belief that they’re indestructible

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Boras
« Reply #12: August 04, 2022, 09:31:39 AM »
If you get a reputation for not doing right by your players, you can kiss your future free agent signings goodbye. These are still human beings. You mess with their career and earnings that much, and it's not only immoral, but also sends a message to every other player in baseball who might have otherwise considered playing for you.

No Boras clients? That would be awful. Other agents might love a team trying to break Boras’ stranglehold over the top talent

Offline Duke of Earl

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Re: Boras
« Reply #13: August 04, 2022, 09:32:12 AM »
Or, alternatively, don’t draft his players.

That approach will not work when you have the overall first pick and Strasburg or Harper is available.

And you could argue the same for Rendon, although other teams did avoid him, not because of Boras, but rather injury.  Still, if we had passed on him, we likely would not have won the World Series.

Offline mimontero88

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Re: Boras
« Reply #14: August 04, 2022, 09:34:52 AM »
No Boras clients? That would be awful. Other agents might love a team trying to break Boras’ stranglehold over the top talent
But that's the thing. He has a stranglehold over the top talent so if you want the top talent, might wanna work with the guy. Not saying that's ideal. Just saying that's the reality.

Offline Duke of Earl

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Re: Boras
« Reply #15: August 04, 2022, 09:37:04 AM »
You get his guys though arbitration, .....

Not really.  You still have to sign the player to a contract initially.   And if I recall correctly, it was a very difficult  process, both Strasburg and Harper. Like we signed them about 30 seconds before deadline.  All because Boras was such a jerk.

Offline DPMOmaha

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Re: Boras
« Reply #16: August 04, 2022, 09:40:30 AM »
I’ve long thought Boras is bad for baseball.

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Boras
« Reply #17: August 04, 2022, 09:41:12 AM »
One thing I've been wondering about Boras for a while is how he gets his players to all disregard any benefit of taking the money right now vs the risk of waiting 2-5 years for a marginally higher amount.   In some of these cases, they are saying no to 400-450 million guaranteed in hopes of 450-500, but risk getting a whole lot less if they have a career altering injury or hit a slump they can't get out of.   There's no way this can make logical sense at the individual level.    I can see it making sense at Boras's level.  He can take a hit if he maximizes everyone's value and one out of every 10 doesn't pan out.   

How does he convince his players to all disregard that risk?   I get they can get some insurance for a career ending injury, but is it going to pay out 500 million if Soto has a career ending or altering injury?   Does Boras take a 5% tax on everyone to put in a kitty that pays out when a player holding out for free agency is a bust?   Is that legal?   Would it be public knowledge?

It breaks the market factors of the CBA when he has his players disregard any benefit to re-signing.   It's his right to do so, but it is bad for baseball in the long run.   Teams losing their star players they've grown attached to kills fan bases.   Teams paying stars for years after their prime is not ideal for anyone either.   

I wonder this all the time. The response is usually “insurance policy,” but no insurance policy is going to pay out that kind of money.
It just really seems irrational to turn down generational wealth that one can’t possibly spend in 3 lifetimes for the possibility of getting more than you can spend in 4 lifetimes. Especially when there is a non-zero chance of getting nothing.

That being said, I realize that I don’t have the mentality of a professional athlete, where ego likely puts significant value on setting a record or getting maximal value. I don’t understand it,  but it’s this attitude that probably let them succeed in professional sports.

But their advisors shouldn’t also be feeding into that ego. Unless they have the financial incentive to do so. Hence the ethical issues mentioned above.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Boras
« Reply #18: August 04, 2022, 09:42:32 AM »
That approach will not work when you have the overall first pick and Strasburg or Harper is available.

And you could argue the same for Rendon, although other teams did avoid him, not because of Boras, but rather injury.  Still, if we had passed on him, we likely would not have won the World Series.
also, what do you do about guys who switch to Boras after being with another agent? IIRC, Soto didn't become a Boras client until after he was in the majors.  I know Betts switched.  Has Tampa never had a Boras client?  Their way of dealing with it is to deal the super-talent while he has several years of team control.  There's nothing wrong with having a Boras client through the first year or two of arbitration.  He doesn't set the pay in that process.  You just then deal the guy to thicken the farm system, like we just did.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Boras
« Reply #19: August 04, 2022, 09:43:01 AM »
I guess I don’t understand these arguments.  Maybe bad for some fans but I think most causal fans like to have the big stars congregating in the big markets. Like the NBA.  I think it’s hard to say for sure Harper and Soto were going to leave no matter what. The offers were not serious.  The Lerners got it done twice with Strasburg. For some reason they valued pitchers much higher.

Online nfotiu

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Re: Boras
« Reply #20: August 04, 2022, 09:56:13 AM »
I guess I don’t understand these arguments.  Maybe bad for some fans but I think most causal fans like to have the big stars congregating in the big markets. Like the NBA.  I think it’s hard to say for sure Harper and Soto were going to leave no matter what. The offers were not serious.  The Lerners got it done twice with Strasburg. For some reason they valued pitchers much higher.

They are not really going to the prime markets on the most part.   The Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs are all shying away from these 15 year super contracts.   The Dodgers got one in Mookie, but don't have many other ultra long term guys and have pretty unlimited resources.   Do the Mets/Padres/Angels count as major markets?   I guess they're big markets, but not really high profile tier a teams.     

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Boras
« Reply #21: August 04, 2022, 09:58:19 AM »
I guess I don’t understand these arguments.  Maybe bad for some fans but I think most causal fans like to have the big stars congregating in the big markets. Like the NBA.  I think it’s hard to say for sure Harper and Soto were going to leave no matter what. The offers were not serious.  The Lerners got it done twice with Strasburg. For some reason they valued pitchers much higher.

The second Strasburg contract we were bidding against ourselves. The first, sure I guess it’s great, but it’s not like he had lived up to anywhere near his potential when he signed it.

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Boras
« Reply #22: August 04, 2022, 10:21:19 AM »
I think he didn’t do himself any favors this time around. He could’ve had Soto making bank here, incentivizing a timely retooling including his clients and have the other teams bidding up other clients. Now, a previously big spending team in a market that can sustain that might not return that way for who knows how long.

And if there is a return to free agency, it might just be one of the big spending teams using up the big money on him rather than another client. Given the limited number of teams for his clients and the cyclical nature of that, incentivizing his client to make a deal there seems to be more towards his interest rather than risking one sizable market potentially tapping out for quite a while.

Offline The Chief

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Re: Boras
« Reply #23: August 04, 2022, 10:23:18 AM »
Plenty of blame to go around.  Wish I could say it will bite them in the ass someday but they already got theirs.  Fans are the ones who will be left holding the bag, as always.

(These sentiments aren't specific to the current situation)

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Boras
« Reply #24: August 04, 2022, 10:33:33 AM »
The second Strasburg contract we were bidding against ourselves. The first, sure I guess it’s great, but it’s not like he had lived up to anywhere near his potential when he signed it.
I think that reinforces what I said.