Author Topic: Harper reflections at the Zimmerman retirement  (Read 487 times)

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Offline sixthree175

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First time I think Harper was cheered without being booed in his Phillies uni was on the video with players at the start.
Enough with booing Harper.  He crapped out on us in 2018, and I'm over it.  Now he's consistently one of the best players in MLB.

Offline English Natsie

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #1: June 20, 2022, 05:54:27 AM »
Enough with booing Harper.  He crapped out on us in 2018, and I'm over it.  Now he's consistently one of the best players in MLB.

Indeed. Anyway, we don't need to boo to realize what a treacherous, money-grabbing.... ;)

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #2: June 20, 2022, 09:00:14 AM »
Enough with booing Harper.  He crapped out on us in 2018, and I'm over it.  Now he's consistently one of the best players in MLB.
I didn't boo Freeman because he's excellent, on the Dodgers now, and comes across as a decent guy.  As for Harper, I view more as a jerk on a rival who happens to be good.  I don't bother to boo him, but I can understand, the same way I can understand booing Draymond Green and cheering for Steph Curry (or, booing Marcus Smart and cheering Jaylen Brown).

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #3: June 20, 2022, 09:23:57 AM »
I didn't boo Freeman because he's excellent, on the Dodgers now, and comes across as a decent guy.  As for Harper, I view more as a jerk on a rival who happens to be good.  I don't bother to boo him, but I can understand, the same way I can understand booing Draymond Green and cheering for Steph Curry (or, booing Marcus Smart and cheering Jaylen Brown).
Boo the Lerners for not making a serious offer. Same as with Turner and Soto. 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #4: June 20, 2022, 11:03:45 AM »
yah, I should have said I viewed Harper more as a jerk on rival who happened to be good.  Wouldn't boo, not so much my style, but wouldn't object to booing him.  I'm dropping the "jerk" part, even though I still think his 2018 was a selfish season (no effort d, only looking for HR at the expense of AV and OBP, lowering his contribution to a good team) contributing to the lull in the 2016-2019 stretch.  Obviously, his teammates liked him, he respected them, so the jerk in this is me for projecting maybe more than him.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #5: June 20, 2022, 01:42:35 PM »
Harper is a Philly.  Phillies are jerks.  A=B and B=C  :P

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #6: June 20, 2022, 04:52:30 PM »
Harper is a Philly.  Phillies are jerks.  A=B and B=C  :P
so you are saying with Harper, AC in DC?  Well, Hell's Bells.

Offline UMDNats

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #7: June 20, 2022, 04:58:21 PM »
yah, I should have said I viewed Harper more as a jerk on rival who happened to be good.  Wouldn't boo, not so much my style, but wouldn't object to booing him.  I'm dropping the "jerk" part, even though I still think his 2018 was a selfish season (no effort d, only looking for HR at the expense of AV and OBP, lowering his contribution to a good team) contributing to the lull in the 2016-2019 stretch.  Obviously, his teammates liked him, he respected them, so the jerk in this is me for projecting maybe more than him.

Bryce is going to go down as one the least impactful superstars. He has very little national brand anymore, he's been in the league 10 years with no playoff success (not his fault), rotating door of managers, players seem mostly OK with him but as a "star," he seems to possess 0 leadership instincts and generally seems to be a guy just riding out his career hitting well but doing nothing else of substance. I mean he's not even a Top 5 baseball face anymore. Trout, Ohtani, Judge, maybe even Tatis, Freeman, Max, etc. have more clout than him. All those boomers who told him to chill out from 2012-2016 or so are probably to blame as he's now Bryce the Brand more than anything. Also I'm sure plenty of teammates never liked him, how many guys got choked out in their own dugout? But you're right that many seem to be fine with him.

I don't really hold any ill will to Bryce. What made 2019 funnier was it was immediately after we let Bryce go, and everyone knows that stung him. But other than that I forget he's even a player sometimes.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #8: June 20, 2022, 09:57:02 PM »
Bryce is going to go down as one the least impactful superstars. He has very little national brand anymore, he's been in the league 10 years with no playoff success (not his fault), rotating door of managers, players seem mostly OK with him but as a "star," he seems to possess 0 leadership instincts and generally seems to be a guy just riding out his career hitting well but doing nothing else of substance. I mean he's not even a Top 5 baseball face anymore. Trout, Ohtani, Judge, maybe even Tatis, Freeman, Max, etc. have more clout than him. All those boomers who told him to chill out from 2012-2016 or so are probably to blame as he's now Bryce the Brand more than anything. Also I'm sure plenty of teammates never liked him, how many guys got choked out in their own dugout? But you're right that many seem to be fine with him.

I don't really hold any ill will to Bryce. What made 2019 funnier was it was immediately after we let Bryce go, and everyone knows that stung him. But other than that I forget he's even a player sometimes.
Just won his second MVP and having another big season. And on his way to the HOF.  But he is not impactful. LOL. 

https://dodgers.mlblogs.com/betts-bellinger-have-mlbs-most-popular-jerseys-e0ba7229b107



Online Slateman

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #9: June 20, 2022, 10:49:30 PM »
People try to downplay Bryce as some sort of defense mechanism. He's no more a douche than any other super athelete. We didnt magically win in the postseason because Harper wasnt here.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #10: June 20, 2022, 11:19:23 PM »
People try to downplay Bryce as some sort of defense mechanism. He's no more a douche than any other super athelete. We didnt magically win in the postseason because Harper wasnt here.
He’s a lightning rod for the playoff failures even though he generally performed well. The where’s my ring comment did not work out. And they would not have won four division titles without him. No Soto back then. Letting him go allowed them to sign Corbin which helped win a title. So there is that. 

Online imref

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #11: June 21, 2022, 12:24:45 AM »
Harper leaving meant we signed Corbin and kept Eaton. Both were pretty instrumental to our WS run.

But this is the Zimmerman thread....so....


Offline UMDNats

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #12: June 21, 2022, 12:00:55 PM »
Just won his second MVP and having another big season. And on his way to the HOF.  But he is not impactful. LOL. 

https://dodgers.mlblogs.com/betts-bellinger-have-mlbs-most-popular-jerseys-e0ba7229b107

Impactful in the baseball zeitgeist, not in terms of production. He's always produced and will produce. He's an elite HOF hitter. But he's not even 30 and he's already fading away as a marketing arm of the league. Ask a collection of younger fans who their favorite players are and the vast majority won't throw Bryce's name into the ring. Him signing in Philly and the team tanking the last few years has murdered his brand because he's not playing in the postseason and he's so outwardly depressed compared to his personality on the Nats. The HR Derby in 2018 was like the peak of his brand so far. Guy will still go into the HOF as an elite hitter but man just feels like he's in the background doing it.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #13: June 21, 2022, 01:23:29 PM »
I just showed you he is fourth in jersey sales.  You’re just making stuff up. There are always new guys who come along and get the media attention. Not having been in the playoffs since 2017 does not help his aura but he is still one of the most recognizable names.


Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #14: June 21, 2022, 02:04:48 PM »
Impactful in the baseball zeitgeist, not in terms of production. He's always produced and will produce. He's an elite HOF hitter. But he's not even 30 and he's already fading away as a marketing arm of the league. Ask a collection of younger fans who their favorite players are and the vast majority won't throw Bryce's name into the ring. Him signing in Philly and the team tanking the last few years has murdered his brand because he's not playing in the postseason and he's so outwardly depressed compared to his personality on the Nats. The HR Derby in 2018 was like the peak of his brand so far. Guy will still go into the HOF as an elite hitter but man just feels like he's in the background doing it.
I don't consider him an elite hitter, not that you have to be one to be in the HOF.  Very good and will move up in some counting stats, but Boswell always compared him to Reggie Jackson.  That's HoF profile, but not elite. 

Here's a guy who is a similar hitter that no one thinks was a HoF:
20 seasons, 440 HR, .277/ .399 / .516, wRC+ 140.
Bryce:
11 seasons, 282 HR, .282 / .392 / .529, wRC+ 143.

Given he's in his back-half of his career, expect Bryce's numbers to move towards the other guy.  I'll guess the OBP and SLG drop, but he has decent shot at 160+ more HR over his contract. Of course, the other guy was a BALCO boy, so that hurt his candidacy, too, but he was mostly done in by aging poorly.  Only a 1 time MVP.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #15: June 21, 2022, 02:12:55 PM »
Somewhere in storage my Ronnie Belliard fathead is crying tears at this name. 

Zimmerman a class act all the way, hats off to that boss. 

Harper still selling Gatorade and got the kids pumped.  Saw a LL group at Chick-Fil-A in Cary the other day and of the 12 kids wearing signature cleats six had Harper.  Entirely possible said LLers were Mormons but I was kind of shocked Harper still has that level of appeal to the kids.
gonna have to do a breakout for all the Harper talk, but it's him and Tim Anderson hyping either a Carl's or a Sonic MLB burgers for the vote off for the all star game.  Harper still is a marketer. The hollow part of his resume would be no World Series, so he's not Mr October with Mr October stats.  He's also not in Trout's league.

Personally, the guy who doesn't get the deserved hype is  Mookie.  The guy should be the face of baseball.  Classic franchise(s), major market, great personality and skills. 

Offline UMDNats

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I don't consider him an elite hitter, not that you have to be one to be in the HOF.  Very good and will move up in some counting stats, but Boswell always compared him to Reggie Jackson.  That's HoF profile, but not elite. 

Here's a guy who is a similar hitter that no one thinks was a HoF:
20 seasons, 440 HR, .277/ .399 / .516, wRC+ 140.
Bryce:
11 seasons, 282 HR, .282 / .392 / .529, wRC+ 143.

Given he's in his back-half of his career, expect Bryce's numbers to move towards the other guy.  I'll guess the OBP and SLG drop, but he has decent shot at 160+ more HR over his contract. Of course, the other guy was a BALCO boy, so that hurt his candidacy, too, but he was mostly done in by aging poorly.  Only a 1 time MVP.

bryce's counting numbers will get him in IMO. 400 HRs is a lock and he'll play well into his late 30s. He gets hurt by playing the same time as Trout, who is an all-time legend already, but I think also writers vote him in because of his entire narrative. He was a pretty major baseball story for a long time, from high school to the draft to the minors to the nats to the phillies and wherever his career takes him.

I actually really hope that one day when vegas gets a team bryce finishes his career there.

Offline HalfSmokes

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I just showed you he is fourth in jersey sales.  You’re just making stuff up. There are always new guys who come along and get the media attention. Not having been in the playoffs since 2017 does not help his aura but he is still one of the most recognizable names.



To be fair he's a baseball player and no baseball players are really superstars at this point.

Online Slateman

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Impactful in the baseball zeitgeist, not in terms of production. He's always produced and will produce. He's an elite HOF hitter. But he's not even 30 and he's already fading away as a marketing arm of the league. Ask a collection of younger fans who their favorite players are and the vast majority won't throw Bryce's name into the ring. Him signing in Philly and the team tanking the last few years has murdered his brand because he's not playing in the postseason and he's so outwardly depressed compared to his personality on the Nats. The HR Derby in 2018 was like the peak of his brand so far. Guy will still go into the HOF as an elite hitter but man just feels like he's in the background doing it.
He's got national level commercials. How is he fading?

Offline UMDNats

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He's got national level commercials. How is he fading?

There's a lot more to a player's brand than TV commercials. Him doing UA commercials are meaningless, for example.

To be fair he's a baseball player and no baseball players are really superstars at this point.

Harper was supposed to be the guy who bucked that trend. Seemed to happen for a bit but not anymore. Aaron Judge is one of the biggest names in baseball but it helps that he's in NYC. He's all over MLB and their partner brand's marketing at all levels.

If/when the phillies make the playoffs Bryce will be a huge talking point again because he's a lightning rod but since the team is ass he's not going to move the needle for now. Also being a DH-only doesn't help.


Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #20: June 21, 2022, 02:58:58 PM »
gonna have to do a breakout for all the Harper talk, but it's him and Tim Anderson hyping either a Carl's or a Sonic MLB burgers for the vote off for the all star game.  Harper still is a marketer. The hollow part of his resume would be no World Series, so he's not Mr October with Mr October stats.  He's also not in Trout's league.

Personally, the guy who doesn't get the deserved hype is  Mookie.  The guy should be the face of baseball.  Classic franchise(s), major market, great personality and skills.
The last two seasons he has been elite. Not sure if he can keep that up or for how long. Also much more durable than Trout.  I mean if Harold Baines is in the HOF….

Yes Mookie is great.  In general baseball seems to do a bad job of marketing it’s players and young folks are not so interested in the game.


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assuming Harper gets TJ in the off season, he'd be looking at a 6-9 month recovery I assume?

Offline dracnal

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #22: June 21, 2022, 03:25:48 PM »
The last two seasons he has been elite. Not sure if he can keep that up or for how long. Also much more durable than Trout.  I mean if Harold Baines is in the HOF….

Yes Mookie is great.  In general baseball seems to do a bad job of marketing it’s players and young folks are not so interested in the game.

I think baseball has the problem of a -huge- contingent of aging fans that long for the golden days of yore, vs the modern attention span of a fruit fly (I put myself in that latter category). If they change the game to appeal to younger fans, they'll alienate the guys who have disposable income and enjoy taking their grandkids to games. If they don't change something, kids will continue to use baseball as an excellent cure for insomnia.

Online Natsinpwc

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There's a lot more to a player's brand than TV commercials. Him doing UA commercials are meaningless, for example.

Harper was supposed to be the guy who bucked that trend. Seemed to happen for a bit but not anymore. Aaron Judge is one of the biggest names in baseball but it helps that he's in NYC. He's all over MLB and their partner brand's marketing at all levels.

If/when the phillies make the playoffs Bryce will be a huge talking point again because he's a lightning rod but since the team is ass he's not going to move the needle for now. Also being a DH-only doesn't help.
You want him to be not as popular and so he is not!  Where did it say Harper was going to buck that trend?  We live in an age where the media goes from one star to another.  From Guerrero Jr. to Tatis Jr.  And then to Ohtani.  And on and on.  Does not mean the others are less popular.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Re: End of an Era - Zimmerman retires
« Reply #24: June 21, 2022, 03:31:02 PM »
I think baseball has the problem of a -huge- contingent of aging fans that long for the golden days of yore, vs the modern attention span of a fruit fly (I put myself in that latter category). If they change the game to appeal to younger fans, they'll alienate the guys who have disposable income and enjoy taking their grandkids to games. If they don't change something, kids will continue to use baseball as an excellent cure for insomnia.
This ^