Author Topic: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?  (Read 570 times)

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Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Topic Start: May 18, 2022, 09:06:11 AM »
This is the worst Nationals team ever. It's a shame they put in a draft lottery, thankfully the 2023 draft appears pretty loaded.
I think you are right about this team.  When you think about the Dunn / Willingham years, at least the big booming bats could hit.

Most losses were 2009 (103), so let's compare:

C - Josh Bard / Will Nieves.  I think Jesus Flores may have been #1 but was hurt and only played 29 games?
1B - Nick Johnson, with some Adam Dunn.  Nick managed 424 PAs that year, with a .295 / .408 / .402 slash line.  Bad power year for him.
2d - Anderson Hernandez / Alberto Gonzalez, with some time from Ronnie Belliard before he was dealt to the Dodgers.
SS - Cristian Guzman, who yielded eventually to Ian Desmond after Guzman was traded to the Rangers.
3rd - Face of the Franchise - .888 OPS and great defense
LF - Willingham and Dunn.  Willingham started 33 games in right that year. 
CF - you don't want to know.  Willie Harris, Lastings Milledge (briefly), Nyjer Morgan, Justin Maxwell, Elijah Dukes.
RF - Dukes did the most time ;)

Rotation - Lannan had 33 starts, no other pitcher had more than 20.  Stammen, JZ, Garrett Mock, Shairon Martis, JD Martin,  Ross Detwiler, and Scott Olsen all got 10-19 starts. In fairness, Stammen, JZ, and Detwiler had long major league careers, and certainly Stammen and JZ had years of high end performance.

I'll say Ruiz > 2009 catchers, I think Bell will have a better year than Nick & Dunn, and Soto is the best OF.  OTOH, young Zim was clearly the 2nd best player on the combined rosters.  Yadi may end up pushing Willingham and Dunn in left. Guzman had a good year, and young Desi showed stuff, so there's no question 09 > 22 at SS.  2nd?  Cesar, most likely, is better.  CF is a CF for both, so call it a wash.  So, C, RF, 1B, 2d clear for '22, 3rd and SS clear for '09, CF and maybe LF open / wash. 

Rotation?  Gray and pray for '22, but will depend on whether Stras and Ross are effective at all.  Gray and young JZ are eerily parallel.  I suspect I'll end up taking Craig Stammen's career over Erick Fedde.  Lannan > Corbin.  Rest looks like a wash?

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which is worse?
« Reply #1: May 18, 2022, 09:16:09 AM »
I think it is fair to compare Dunn to Cruz when comparing rosters, too.  Their function was the same - a bat slid into the lineup - but Dunn had to take the field.  B-R called him a "utility player" that year because I guess Willingham technically had more time in the outfield and Nick had more time at first.

Maybe it is fair to compare the batting orders rather than position by position?

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which is worse?
« Reply #2: May 18, 2022, 09:57:25 AM »

2d - Anderson Hernandez / Alberto Gonzalez, with some time from Ronnie Belliard before he was dealt to the Dodgers.


Those two provided the second most, 'Really??' moment I have seen with the team. The first was Nyjer Morgan tossing his glove down and throwing a pouty tantrum, allowing an inside the park homerun. The Hernandez/Gonzalez thing came at a game where Hernandez had second and Gonzalez had been slotted in at first base. I can't remember if it was the result of pinch hitter, or if he played the whole game there, but at one point a batter hit a grounder to second. Hernandez fielded it easily, turned, and threw it to Gonzalez. I don't know if Gonzalez was daydreaming or wondering if he left the iron on at home, but he realized the ball was heading his way and flinched. He threw up both hands to protect himself, turned his head towards home, and closed his eyes. The lightly tossed ball bounced off his arm, dropped to the ground, and the runner got first. It was just so bizarre to see a major league ballplayer afraid of a soft toss that I couldn't help but laugh at the whole thing.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #3: May 18, 2022, 10:12:20 AM »
I forget if it was 2008 or 2010, but Emilio Bonifacio ended up in the mix for 2nd around then. I referred to the 3 as "Bonihernalez."

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #4: May 18, 2022, 10:29:59 AM »
Good thing Mike Rizzo kicked out Kevin Long and hired whatever random turd hitting coach was hanging out at Taco Bell.

Offline nfotiu

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #5: May 18, 2022, 10:43:54 AM »
If 2009 is a comparable for where we are at, then maybe best case scenario is we are terrible next year, .500 in 2024, and contending in 2025.

That makes the Soto situation a giant elephant in the room.   There is virtually no chance that he can help us win anything in his team controlled years.   I was completely fine with Rizzo keeping Harper until FA since he was helping getting us into the post season.   To keep Soto for 3 wasted years and let him walk is impossible to justify.

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #6: May 18, 2022, 11:07:05 AM »
Good thing Mike Rizzo kicked out Kevin Long and hired whatever random turd hitting coach was hanging out at Taco Bell.

This times a million. We had a premier coach - one of maybe five hitting coaches that actually stand out compared to the crowd - and we kicked him to the curb over a year or a couple hundred grand.

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #7: May 18, 2022, 11:08:24 AM »
If 2009 is a comparable for where we are at, then maybe best case scenario is we are terrible next year, .500 in 2024, and contending in 2025.

That makes the Soto situation a giant elephant in the room.   There is virtually no chance that he can help us win anything in his team controlled years.   I was completely fine with Rizzo keeping Harper until FA since he was helping getting us into the post season.   To keep Soto for 3 wasted years and let him walk is impossible to justify.

I can’t picture completing in 23/24. We have a few pieces and a bad farm and just wasted an off-season. This looks like a 7 year rebuild to me with the added complexity of the owners being broke.

Offline nfotiu

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #8: May 18, 2022, 11:20:06 AM »
I can’t picture completing in 23/24. We have a few pieces and a bad farm and just wasted an off-season. This looks like a 7 year rebuild to me with the added complexity of the owners being broke.

The owner situation feels like it could drag out for several years too.   It's hard to imagine this team getting on track until the MASN and ownership situations are resolved.

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #9: May 18, 2022, 11:52:45 AM »
The owner situation feels like it could drag out for several years too.   It's hard to imagine this team getting on track until the MASN and ownership situations are resolved.

If the Lerners hold the team hostage (aka no spending whatsoever) for years over finding the right buyer then they are only cratering the value of the organization. Sale gets done by EOY.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which is worse?
« Reply #10: May 18, 2022, 12:18:40 PM »
I think it is fair to compare Dunn to Cruz when comparing rosters, too.  Their function was the same - a bat slid into the lineup - but Dunn had to take the field.  B-R called him a "utility player" that year because I guess Willingham technically had more time in the outfield and Nick had more time at first.

Maybe it is fair to compare the batting orders rather than position by position?

I think Cruz should count as a negative.  The 2009 team had pitchers that hit around league average for pitchers and Cruz is a much worse than average DH now. Overall, it's remarkable that a lineup with a DH in it isn't noticeably better than one without it. 

The 2022 lineup is a weird animal relative to the league: they're near the top of the NL in average and OBP but near the bottom in power numbers.

But overall the teams aren't that much different.  They're poor to middling on offense and godawful at pitching and defense.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #11: May 18, 2022, 01:07:41 PM »
I think Cruz should count as a negative.  The 2009 team had pitchers that hit around league average for pitchers and Cruz is a much worse than average DH now. Overall, it's remarkable that a lineup with a DH in it isn't noticeably better than one without it. 

The 2022 lineup is a weird animal relative to the league: they're near the top of the NL in average and OBP but near the bottom in power numbers.

But overall the teams aren't that much different.  They're poor to middling on offense and godawful at pitching and defense.
no question, performance-wise, Dunn had a much better season than anything Cruz can pull out. 

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #12: May 18, 2022, 08:44:25 PM »
<CF - you don't want to know.  Willie Harris, Lastings Milledge (briefly), Nyjer Morgan, Justin Maxwell, Elijah Dukes.>


I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that. I guess that's just what you call a shame.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #13: May 18, 2022, 09:15:32 PM »
Willie Harris is a great American

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #14: May 18, 2022, 09:28:06 PM »
I see Corbin - Gray -Fedde in the rotation and I think Lannan - JZ - Stammen. Sanchez is Scott Olsen.

Offline RobDibblesGhost

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #15: May 19, 2022, 12:31:37 AM »
<CF - you don't want to know.  Willie Harris, Lastings Milledge (briefly), Nyjer Morgan, Justin Maxwell, Elijah Dukes.>


I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that. I guess that's just what you call a shame.

CF has multiple meanings in this case  ;)

Online blue911

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #16: May 19, 2022, 06:58:35 AM »
I see Corbin - Gray -Fedde in the rotation and I think Lannan - JZ - Stammen. Sanchez is Scott Olsen.

Whenever I think of Olsen, I imagine a guy burning heaters and sending dick-picks to women of questionable age

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #17: May 19, 2022, 09:52:24 AM »
I like the 2009 roster better.  I just am not into the current situation where it's a collection of has-beens and some never-was's meandering around each night.  09 had some personality at least; this year's team is completely uninteresting.

Offline Duke of Earl

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #18: May 19, 2022, 02:09:21 PM »
In my opinion, it is way too early to be comparing an entire season (2009) with the beginning less-than-a third of this season.

 I think there is much room for improvement over the course of the next four+ months and I am optimistic that we will finish above .500.

Soto will come out of his slump, as will Cruz.  Ruiz, good as he is, will only improve. I hope and believe that those two pretend centerfielders (Thomas and Robles) will soon be gone and replaced by a real centerfielder.

Hernandez, Bell, Franco — what’s not to like?

Shortstop, I have no answer for, just hoping that Rizzo will come up with a better idea.

Strasburg and Ross will be returning.  Gray is going to continue to improve. Fedde is improving. That’s four legitimate starters; as for a fifth starter - all you really hope to get is a good appearance half the time. That’s Corbin.

I watch most every game, and I see a bit of improvement most games. 

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #19: May 19, 2022, 02:20:36 PM »
In my opinion, it is way too early to be comparing an entire season (2009) with the beginning less-than-a third of this season.

 I think there is much room for improvement over the course of the next four+ months and I am optimistic that we will finish above .500.

Soto will come out of his slump, as will Cruz.  Ruiz, good as he is, will only improve. I hope and believe that those two pretend centerfielders (Thomas and Robles) will soon be gone and replaced by a real centerfielder.

Hernandez, Bell, Franco — what’s not to like?

Shortstop, I have no answer for, just hoping that Rizzo will come up with a better idea.

Strasburg and Ross will be returning.  Gray is going to continue to improve. Fedde is improving. That’s four legitimate starters; as for a fifth starter - all you really hope to get is a good appearance half the time. That’s Corbin.

I watch most every game, and I see a bit of improvement most games.

Yes, things will get better if you assume everything that's going right continues to go right and every potential solution to current problems comes up aces.  For example, you're assuming a mystery solution for CF appears from thin air and Soto and Cruz trend way up while Hernandez, Bell, Fedde, and Franco all stay above career norms for the entire year, plus Ross and Strasburg come back and pitch effectively for an entire season after major surgeries and missing entire seasons while nobody else gets hurt.

But very little of that will happen.  Strasburg and Ross won't be back for at least another month per Martinez, and there's a good chance it will be longer, and they likely won't be that good when they return.  It takes guys a while to find themselves again. 

There is not a solution coming for CF.  Maikel Franco is not going to be a league average hitter all year, and if he is still hitting in July he won't finish the year in DC.  Same story for Yadiel Hernandez and hitting .325 with reasonable. It's quite likely that either Gray or Fedde will miss time, just based on their histories and pitchers generally. 

Also, what's wrong with Bell, Yadiel, and Franco is the same thing across the board: they're all terrible defenders.

This is a bad team.  It will continue to be a bad team, even if the specific contours of how it gets to its losses may change. 

Offline Mattionals

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #20: May 19, 2022, 03:39:41 PM »
Yes, things will get better if you assume everything that's going right continues to go right and every potential solution to current problems comes up aces.  For example, you're assuming a mystery solution for CF appears from thin air and Soto and Cruz trend way up while Hernandez, Bell, Fedde, and Franco all stay above career norms for the entire year, plus Ross and Strasburg come back and pitch effectively for an entire season after major surgeries and missing entire seasons while nobody else gets hurt.

But very little of that will happen.  Strasburg and Ross won't be back for at least another month per Martinez, and there's a good chance it will be longer, and they likely won't be that good when they return.  It takes guys a while to find themselves again. 

There is not a solution coming for CF.  Maikel Franco is not going to be a league average hitter all year, and if he is still hitting in July he won't finish the year in DC.  Same story for Yadiel Hernandez and hitting .325 with reasonable. It's quite likely that either Gray or Fedde will miss time, just based on their histories and pitchers generally. 

Also, what's wrong with Bell, Yadiel, and Franco is the same thing across the board: they're all terrible defenders.

This is a bad team.  It will continue to be a bad team, even if the specific contours of how it gets to its losses may change.
I feel like a realistic goal this season is to try and sell off the cruddy vets to try and help at least re-stock some of the farm, and see what you get in the second half with Garcia, maybe Cavalli, and probably somebody like Donovan Casey. It's a bad team for sure, but this is what re-tools look like.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #22: May 20, 2022, 07:14:02 PM »
I think Svrluga is right, unfortunately. I don't remember so many routine bad, clumsy, and stupid plays in 2009. The 2022 Nats makes me think of The Perfessor's exasperation: "Can't anybody here play this game?"

These Nats are heading for 50 wins.


Offline van lingle mungo

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #23: May 22, 2022, 08:26:17 PM »
The question posed here is equivalent to asking whether horse manure emits a more pleasant odor than chicken manure or vice versa. From my standpoint though, I'll take whichever odor is wafting from this team over the stench of 2009. Anything associated with the Manny Acta tenure is just too painful to call to mind.

Offline van lingle mungo

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Re: 2009 vs 2022 - which lineup is worse?
« Reply #24: May 22, 2022, 08:30:19 PM »
In my opinion, it is way too early to be comparing an entire season (2009) with the beginning less-than-a third of this season.

 I think there is much room for improvement over the course of the next four+ months and I am optimistic that we will finish above .500.

Soto will come out of his slump, as will Cruz.  Ruiz, good as he is, will only improve. I hope and believe that those two pretend centerfielders (Thomas and Robles) will soon be gone and replaced by a real centerfielder.

Hernandez, Bell, Franco — what’s not to like?

Shortstop, I have no answer for, just hoping that Rizzo will come up with a better idea.

Strasburg and Ross will be returning.  Gray is going to continue to improve. Fedde is improving. That’s four legitimate starters; as for a fifth starter - all you really hope to get is a good appearance half the time. That’s Corbin.

I watch most every game, and I see a bit of improvement most games.

What he said ^^^^.....

Especially in the first sentence.