Author Topic: Strasburg 2022  (Read 4316 times)

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Offline Slateman

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #250: July 23, 2022, 01:40:10 PM »
Would you do that in his position? Honest answer please. I think many of us might say we would but would continue to get the pay.
I cant fathom having 140 million dollars. But also. He gets to keep the money one way or another.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #251: July 23, 2022, 01:47:34 PM »
I cant fathom having 140 million dollars. But also. He gets to keep the money one way or another.
So what’s the advantage to having him retire then? Not his fault the league doesn’t have some long term salary relief in these cases like the NHL.

I’m mad at the Lerners for the contract. Not the player.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #252: July 23, 2022, 02:07:13 PM »
In reading back through this thread I am somewhat confused. Seems to me if he just retires that does break the contract and he will not be paid. Instead he has to do like Ellsbury and maybe some others and keep trying to rehab.  Or am I missing something?

Offline Slateman

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #253: July 23, 2022, 02:07:15 PM »
So what’s the advantage to having him retire then? Not his fault the league doesn’t have some long term salary relief in these cases like the NHL.

I’m mad at the Lerners for the contract. Not the player.
I assume that working out payment deferment helps out cash flow over the next five years.

Also, I would think that if a player retires due to a medical issue, it doesnt count against the luxury tax.

Im not mad at Stras, but at some point, even he has to acknowledge that holding a roster spot for him to rehab 4 months, make a start, and go back to the IL is not feasible for the next five years.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #254: July 23, 2022, 02:28:23 PM »
What I am confused about is whether or not he gets paid if he just retires? Someone made the statement that he gets paid unless he up and retires in his own. True? What would the doctors have to conclude to have a forced medical retirement? Have there been any of those?  At this point I think he has to keep trying to rehab to get paid.

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #255: July 23, 2022, 02:32:47 PM »
In reading this Fielder “retired” but stayed on the roster. Doctors would not clear him to play. The Rangers had insurance on the contract though. I think if they got insurance the Nats could have also. 

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/2656726-prince-fielder-reportedly-to-retire-latest-comments-and-reaction.amp.html

Edit. The article does not say that but since he remained on the 40 man roster I will assume his annual AAV counted against the luxury tax. So in the end I don’t think there is any reason to assume he will just up and retire and forego money.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #256: July 23, 2022, 02:41:28 PM »
Theres no way the Lerners insured that contract. They were probably thinking about selling the team five minutes Game 7 ended

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #257: July 23, 2022, 03:30:10 PM »
In reading this Fielder “retired” but stayed on the roster. Doctors would not clear him to play. The Rangers had insurance on the contract though. I think if they got insurance the Nats could have also. 

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/2656726-prince-fielder-reportedly-to-retire-latest-comments-and-reaction.amp.html

It’s been years since I heard this, but I think insurance on a pitchers contract is so expensive that teams don’t do it

Offline The Chief

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #258: July 29, 2022, 10:13:38 AM »
I don't hold any ill will towards him - quite the opposite in fact - but Stras is probably the single Nat that most embodies what this team has been.  Sky high potential, flashes of brilliance, and one really big high scattered amongst years of injury and disappointment.  Throw in the bad contract and you've got peak Nationals™.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #259: August 03, 2022, 03:28:48 PM »

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #260: August 03, 2022, 03:34:42 PM »
This season is really bringing home how special that run was. For a team built on stars passing though (due to unwillingness to sign or health) that has an inability to develop any talent, everything coming together like it did was a miracle

Offline mimontero88

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #261: August 03, 2022, 03:54:48 PM »
For those who aren't resigned to this yet, Strasburg will never be the same again. Thoracic outlet syndrome is the new UCL tear for pitchers. You get it and you're just done. I remember when Matt Harvey first came up thinking he had the best pure stuff I had ever seen in a young pitcher. Fast forward a few years and after thoracic outlet syndrome, he was never the same. And he was better and a LOT younger at the time of onset than Strasburg was.

It wasn't a bad contract per se. Pitcher contracts are always risky, but the dude was coming off a World Series MVP and even though he had missed time with injury plenty of times before, those prior injuries couldn't have predicted this. It was just bad luck.

Offline imref

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #262: August 03, 2022, 04:03:55 PM »
FWIW, Will Harris is rehabbing now in Rochester coming back from TOS surgery. He's made four appearances, one in Fredricksburg and three in Rochester. So far he's had 3.1 IP with a 10.80 ERA, but three of his runs allowed came in a single 1/3rd of an inning appearance. In the other three appearances combined he's thrown 3 innings and allowed a run.

Still way too soon to reach any judgement.

Offline The Chief

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #263: August 03, 2022, 04:09:49 PM »
It wasn't a bad contract per se. Pitcher contracts are always risky, but the dude was coming off a World Series MVP and even though he had missed time with injury plenty of times before, those prior injuries couldn't have predicted this. It was just bad luck.

I mean, I get what you're saying but I think LOTS of people could've predicted this, either via statistics or plain old "injury-plagued/cursed" gut feeling.  I don't really care because 2019, and as you said pitcher contracts are always risky, but still.

Stras will forever be a huge part of Nats lore, but he's done now, I thank him for his service and wish him well in the rest of his life - let's not forget he's still got a lot of that ahead of him :)

Offline Mattionals

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #264: August 03, 2022, 04:18:36 PM »
FWIW, Will Harris is rehabbing now in Rochester coming back from TOS surgery. He's made four appearances, one in Fredricksburg and three in Rochester. So far he's had 3.1 IP with a 10.80 ERA, but three of his runs allowed came in a single 1/3rd of an inning appearance. In the other three appearances combined he's thrown 3 innings and allowed a run.

Still way too soon to reach any judgement.


The real issue is pitching for prolonged time. For Harris that means consecutive days and for Strasburg, it means for multiple innings. I'm not a doctor and I don't pretend to be, but from what I understand about TOS, it's very difficult to pinpoint exactly what to "fix", and many times, the scar tissue that then forms after the surgery impinges the nerves just like the original "cause" did. It's also complicated in that TOS can occur in multiple locations. There are multiple spots in the neck and shoulder that can impinge the nerves and cause numbness in the appendages. Sometimes surgeons remove muscle, the first rib, and even have to repair compressed blood vessels. Sometimes it's just one or a combo of those. Even worse, sometimes arteries have to be replaced if the arteries that supply blood are damaged. Then comes rest and rehab, and inflammation can cause similar symptoms to pre-surgery.


It's not unheard of to return from TOS. I just don't know if time is on Strasburg's side. Same goes for Harris.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #265: August 03, 2022, 04:49:24 PM »
Who?

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #266: August 03, 2022, 05:00:55 PM »
It wasn't a bad contract per se. Pitcher contracts are always risky, but the dude was coming off a World Series MVP and even though he had missed time with injury plenty of times before, those prior injuries couldn't have predicted this. It was just bad luck.
  Actually, I sort of think that nerve impingement was a known thing with Strasburg for 3 or 4 years at least prior to 2019.  Svrluga did a piece on Stras's injury history around the time he went back on the DL after his one start this year. What you see repeatedly popping up is "cervical nerve impingement," "shoulder nerve impingement," maybe more than once. I think they kind of knew this was the problem, more than the repaired UCL. By 2019, they may have thought they had figured out how to manage it. Meanwhile, after the first few years, I've thought Strasburg was  more the tough lame SOB who played until his arm fell off rather than The Orchid that was his reputation. You look at his nerve impingement history and related injuries, and it becomes much more apparent he was damaged goods who managed to get something out of his career rather than a fragile guy asking out.

quick google found the article:
Quote
Strasburg has been out with the following ailments, in chronological order, dating from 2010: right shoulder inflammation, a right forearm flexor strain (that led to Tommy John surgery), a mild lat strain, neck tightness, a left oblique strain, an upper back strain, right elbow soreness, a right elbow nerve impingement, right shoulder inflammation, a cervical nerve impingement, right carpal tunnel neuritis, right shoulder inflammation (again), a neck strain, recovery from thoracic outlet surgery — and, finally, the stress reaction in his ribs that he’s dealing with now. Orthopedic sports medicine experts could use his body alone to teach a career’s worth of lessons.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/06/14/stephen-strasburg-injury-future/

Offline Vega

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #267: August 03, 2022, 05:05:13 PM »
Funny how the choice of keeping Rendon or Strasburg was a no-win scenario.

Offline mimontero88

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #268: August 03, 2022, 06:17:03 PM »
  Actually, I sort of think that nerve impingement was a known thing with Strasburg for 3 or 4 years at least prior to 2019.  Svrluga did a piece on Stras's injury history around the time he went back on the DL after his one start this year. What you see repeatedly popping up is "cervical nerve impingement," "shoulder nerve impingement," maybe more than once. I think they kind of knew this was the problem, more than the repaired UCL. By 2019, they may have thought they had figured out how to manage it. Meanwhile, after the first few years, I've thought Strasburg was  more the tough lame SOB who played until his arm fell off rather than The Orchid that was his reputation. You look at his nerve impingement history and related injuries, and it becomes much more apparent he was damaged goods who managed to get something out of his career rather than a fragile guy asking out.

quick google found the article:https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/06/14/stephen-strasburg-injury-future/

Possibly. I can be perfectly honest and say I also give that contract a pass because he was our World Series MVP. In the biggest moment in team history, he stepped up in a massive way. Is that a good baseball reason? Not necessarily, but it's hard to let him walk without the benefit of hindsight.

Offline welch

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #269: August 10, 2022, 11:51:38 AM »
Happened to look up TOS and pitchers. Seems there are more than a few articles. Here is one, and it lists others.

Quote
Abstract

Introduction
: Thoracic outlet syndrome (TOS) can be a career-threatening injury for Major League Baseball (MLB) pitchers, often requiring surgical management. The purpose of this study is to determine the efficacy of surgical management for TOS as a function of return to play and quantitative pitching metrics.

Methods: 27 MLB pitchers underwent surgical treatment for TOS between January 2001 and December 2017. Analysis of pre and postoperative pitching metrics were used to assess the effect of surgery on 20 pitchers who returned to pitch in MLB. All pitching metrics were compared via assessing performance two years prior to surgery and two years after surgery. For 20 pitchers who returned to pitch, MLB pitching metrics of earned run average (ERA), walks plus hits per innings pitched (WHIP), wins above replacement (WAR), and average fastball velocity were used to assess a pitcher's ability to return to preoperative performance level.

Results: Of the 27 pitchers, 20 pitchers were diagnosed with neurogenic thoracic outlet syndrome (NTOS) and seven with venous thoracic outlet syndrome (VTOS). The average age of onset of TOS was 28.6 years. There was no significant difference between the age of onset between the NTOS and VTOS populations (p = 0.272). Of the 27 pitchers, 20 (74.1%) were able to return to MLB play at a mean of 297 days (range, 105-638 days) after surgery. Pitching metrics demonstrated that pitcher ERA remained inferior postoperatively compared to baseline preoperative performance (3.66 vs 4.50, p = 0.03). Fastball velocity (p = 0.94) and strike percentage (p = 0.50) were equivalent to pre-injury performance.

Conclusion: 74% of professional pitchers who undergo surgical intervention for TOS are able to return to play at the MLB level. With regards to performance, the majority of metrics were unchanged from prior to surgery, indicating return at a similar functional level.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33472488/

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Strasburg 2022
« Reply #270: August 10, 2022, 01:16:27 PM »
Happened to look up TOS and pitchers. Seems there are more than a few articles. Here is one, and it lists others.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33472488/
I look at the results and conclusion and wonder if the author knew much about pitcher performance.  That ERA difference among those that come back - nearly a run - should be a tip to look a bit deeper than velocity.  I'm guessing the article is a few years old since it only goes up to 2017.  I'll guess they didn't look at spin rate or other metrics on the effectiveness of the pitches.