Author Topic: Illegal Substances  (Read 690 times)

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Offline Kevrock

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #25: June 14, 2021, 08:30:49 PM »
^^^^

Online Smithian

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #26: June 14, 2021, 09:58:17 PM »
I just struggle to believe the players are that dumb to send those texts.

Online Smithian

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #27: June 14, 2021, 10:11:44 PM »
I just struggle to believe the players are that dumb to send those texts.
Read that long SI article and  :doh:

The only good thing about all this is it seems if they did a massive crackdown on foreign substances which even dialed back pitcher effective by a couple percent then it could loosen up the game a bit.

Online Mattionals

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #28: June 15, 2021, 10:10:56 AM »
This is so dumb. I can understand that the batters want the pitchers to not have an advantage, but also, with everybody throwing harder than ever, maybe just maybe, being able to GRIP a baseball is not a bad thing?

I like the solution of the stickier baseball. No more rosin, no more pine tar, no more spider tack, no more Delaware mud. Just a clean baseball with a pre-applied stickyness that is regulated. I don't flipping care if it's a new ball every pitch or every pick off throw. Pitchers get to have a regulated, inspected after each inning microfiber towel to dry their hands when they sweat. Easy peasey.

Online imref

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #29: June 15, 2021, 10:19:03 AM »
This is so dumb. I can understand that the batters want the pitchers to not have an advantage, but also, with everybody throwing harder than ever, maybe just maybe, being able to GRIP a baseball is not a bad thing?

I like the solution of the stickier baseball. No more rosin, no more pine tar, no more spider tack, no more Delaware mud. Just a clean baseball with a pre-applied stickyness that is regulated. I don't flipping care if it's a new ball every pitch or every pick off throw. Pitchers get to have a regulated, inspected after each inning microfiber towel to dry their hands when they sweat. Easy peasey.

That's exactly what Scherzer has been saying. I've heard a lot of batters say they have no issue with substances that allow pitchers to better grip the ball so long as they don't change the pitch.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #30: June 15, 2021, 10:51:07 AM »
That's exactly what Scherzer has been saying. I've heard a lot of batters say they have no issue with substances that allow pitchers to better grip the ball so long as they don't change the pitch.
How do you change the grip on the ball without changing the pitch. Spin rates are way down since this came up a few weeks ago.  Have more batters been hit during that time because pitchers don’t have a good grip?  Pitchers want to get an edge on the batters and the stuff about what they are using making it safer is just poppycock. 

Online Mattionals

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #31: June 15, 2021, 11:25:33 AM »
How do you change the grip on the ball without changing the pitch. Spin rates are way down since this came up a few weeks ago.  Have more batters been hit during that time because pitchers don’t have a good grip?  Pitchers want to get an edge on the batters and the stuff about what they are using making it safer is just poppycock.

Josh Harrison got hit with a 94 mph fastball last night. Grip is really important and it always has been. The leather itself is slick, then it gets rubbed in mud which doesn't provide an even coating because, well physics. So literally the mud applied to the baseball can affect the trajectory, speed, and spin of the ball.

Add to that, pitchers were supposed to use rosin bags to dry their hands and arms to help soak up the sweat so that they can get a better grip on the ball. So rosin on the hands also could transfer to the ball, and thus change the afore mentioned characteristics of baseball flight.

If you want a game that tries to eliminate the "slipped out of my hand because it was wet" factor, then stop trying to band aid it with mud, rosin, pine tar, spider tack. Just do it to the baseball and be done with it, and if some pitcher tries to put something on the ball after that, suspend them. MLB is now trying to enforce something without having a solution.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #32: June 15, 2021, 01:01:01 PM »
Josh Harrison got hit with a 94 mph fastball last night. Grip is really important and it always has been. The leather itself is slick, then it gets rubbed in mud which doesn't provide an even coating because, well physics. So literally the mud applied to the baseball can affect the trajectory, speed, and spin of the ball.

Add to that, pitchers were supposed to use rosin bags to dry their hands and arms to help soak up the sweat so that they can get a better grip on the ball. So rosin on the hands also could transfer to the ball, and thus change the afore mentioned characteristics of baseball flight.

If you want a game that tries to eliminate the "slipped out of my hand because it was wet" factor, then stop trying to band aid it with mud, rosin, pine tar, spider tack. Just do it to the baseball and be done with it, and if some pitcher tries to put something on the ball after that, suspend them. MLB is now trying to enforce something without having a solution.
Over the past couple of years if guys have been using new stuff to control the baseball hit batters should be down. Have no idea if that has happened. 

All I am saying is that pitchers are using stuff to get a competitive edge and not to protect batters. I am sure they can do soemthing to the ball but whatever it is someone will complain.


Online Mattionals

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #34: June 15, 2021, 04:54:26 PM »
Over the past couple of years if guys have been using new stuff to control the baseball hit batters should be down. Have no idea if that has happened. 

All I am saying is that pitchers are using stuff to get a competitive edge and not to protect batters. I am sure they can do soemthing to the ball but whatever it is someone will complain.

And I'm saying that you aren't wrong, but the way pitchers are getting a competitive edge are because of antiquated methods of how to get a necessary grip on the baseball. I know asking MLB to modernize is super taboo, but this is an easy one in my mind. I agree with you that somebody, probably a lot of people, will complain. Too damn bad. Take away the ability to have a pitcher have a competitive advantage and standardize a stickier, easier to grip ball. That eliminates adding "legal stuff" to a baseball to give pitchers an edge.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #35: June 15, 2021, 05:19:34 PM »
And I'm saying that you aren't wrong, but the way pitchers are getting a competitive edge are because of antiquated methods of how to get a necessary grip on the baseball. I know asking MLB to modernize is super taboo, but this is an easy one in my mind. I agree with you that somebody, probably a lot of people, will complain. Too damn bad. Take away the ability to have a pitcher have a competitive advantage and standardize a stickier, easier to grip ball. That eliminates adding "legal stuff" to a baseball to give pitchers an edge.
Fair enough.

Online Slateman

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #36: June 15, 2021, 06:34:46 PM »
This is so dumb. I can understand that the batters want the pitchers to not have an advantage, but also, with everybody throwing harder than ever, maybe just maybe, being able to GRIP a baseball is not a bad thing?

I like the solution of the stickier baseball. No more rosin, no more pine tar, no more spider tack, no more Delaware mud. Just a clean baseball with a pre-applied stickyness that is regulated. I don't flipping care if it's a new ball every pitch or every pick off throw. Pitchers get to have a regulated, inspected after each inning microfiber towel to dry their hands when they sweat. Easy peasey.
They arent doing this to simply get a grip. Theyre doing this to impart way more spin on the ball, increasing velocity and movement of pitches. HBP has only gone up.

This isnt just the rosin bag, or sunscreen, or even pine tar. Dudes are legit gluing the ball to their fingers. They're leaving skin on the ball. This isnt about being able to maintain control. This is effectively a PED for pitchers

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #37: June 15, 2021, 06:48:01 PM »
MLB batting average keeps trending up,  Now at .238.  Some of that is probably the weather but have to think cracking down on illegal substances has some role and should keep trending upward. 

Online Mattionals

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #38: June 15, 2021, 07:29:32 PM »
They arent doing this to simply get a grip. Theyre doing this to impart way more spin on the ball, increasing velocity and movement of pitches. HBP has only gone up.

This isnt just the rosin bag, or sunscreen, or even pine tar. Dudes are legit gluing the ball to their fingers. They're leaving skin on the ball. This isnt about being able to maintain control. This is effectively a PED for pitchers

I'm not disputing that. What I'm saying is that it has gone unregulated because MLB is giving pitchers plausible deniability. The current MLB rules require mudding up every ball and permit the use of a rosin bag. If you get rid of those things and develop a standardized coating to the balls that require no need for mud or rosin, you easily remove the plausible deniability factor. Sure, pitchers are currently getting an advantage. Take it away and give them no recourse for saying, but the rules say this. Clean balls from start to finish. Wipe your sweaty arms on a dry towel. Inspect the towels to make sure they aren't doctored. It's pretty simple.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #39: June 16, 2021, 04:18:17 PM »
Has he had spikes in his spin rate, or is it invisible because he's been doing it since before spin could be measured?

Haven't checked, but I'd guess it's the latter.  I just know he's been specifically named in accusations about this, as evidenced by what that SI reporter said.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #40: June 16, 2021, 05:21:53 PM »
I saw a snip from Pedro demonstrating the effect you could legally get from using the rosin bag and sweat.  Basically, the drying agent becomes tacky and you could heat the stickiness when he snapped his fingers near his mic with and without.

Offline Count Walewski

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #41: June 17, 2021, 02:40:05 AM »
Is this about more balls in play or is this some kind of posturing by the league ahead of CBA negotiations?

Offline Kevrock

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #42: June 17, 2021, 09:47:26 AM »
?

70% of pitchers are actively cheating and the integrity of the game is in the dumps. Again. MLB waited until there was an active and known scandal before doing anything. Again.

So yeah, they are trying to clean the game up so it's not less of a laughingstock of a professional sports league

Online imref

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #43: June 23, 2021, 07:56:09 AM »
Sergio Romo pulled a Max last night, even dropping his pants on the field:

https://twitter.com/RickeyBlog/status/1407530559526428676?s=20


Offline Count Walewski

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #45: June 27, 2021, 08:41:26 PM »
If this holds up, Hector Santiago will be suspended for 10 days and the Mariners will be unable to fill his roster spot during that suspension. Insane. Hector Santiago should have intentionally thrown at a guy's head instead, he would have gotten a lighter sentence.

Online Mattionals

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #46: June 28, 2021, 04:14:22 PM »
I can only hope that the CBA negotiations will force Manfred to resign.

Offline nfotiu

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #47: June 30, 2021, 11:06:47 PM »
What are the league wide stats like before/after the ban?   Double digit scores seem to be popping up all over the place the last couple days.   I imagine that it might have taken a few days for batters to adjust to these pitchers post kryptonite, but this seems like it could get pretty ugly.

Offline Senatorswin

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #48: June 30, 2021, 11:33:48 PM »
Nope. As long as there is competition, there will be people trying to cheat

I think the general public is just starting to realize what horse racing insiders already knew about Bob Baffert and the extent of his cheating.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Illegal Substances
« Reply #49: July 01, 2021, 08:54:01 AM »
Have any pitchers tried this?