Author Topic: 2021 NL East  (Read 956 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online bluestreak

  • Posts: 10689
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #50: April 01, 2021, 03:16:10 PM »
I think Lindor is very good and his offense contributes to that. But it’s disingenuous to compare the numbers of a guy in his prime to a retired player.

Online UMDNats

  • Posts: 17155
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #51: April 01, 2021, 03:30:32 PM »
Lindor generates a lot more of his value from defense than the great SS generation of A-Rod, Jeter, Garciaparra, and Tejada.  He needs to stick at SS until he's 34 or so and play well to make this an OK deal.  As for Turner, the Nats weren't signing him this year, so the real market will be more set by the group of contracts that Seager, Story, etc... sign rather than this one alone. Also, let's see what the next collective bargaining agreement does.  To me, this looks like Cohen not being risk averse.

I think it's a risky-ish move and an overpayment but one that I make if I'm a Mets fan.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 30570
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #52: April 01, 2021, 03:44:56 PM »
I think Lindor is very good and his offense contributes to that. But it’s disingenuous to compare the numbers of a guy in his prime to a retired player.
I'm generally comfortable comparing era-adjusted offensive stats like OPS+ at the same age.  Also, Lindor would not be Lindor without elite defense.  I don't think Jeter, Garciaparra, or Tejada were regarded as elite defenders.  Vizquel, on the other hand, never was in Lindor's class of hitter.

Also, to be fair, I'm comparing that signing to what 2 HoF-level guys produced and 2 other guys who were on that track at that point in their careers.  I think I saw that that is the 3rd biggest contract to date?  For that money, I think you should be getting a likely hall of famer.  Lindor needs to keep up his fielding and stick at SS for 6 or so years to be a HoF candidate, I think.  Could happen, but there's a lot of risk that's not discounted.

Online Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 18710
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #53: April 01, 2021, 04:06:47 PM »
I'm generally comfortable comparing era-adjusted offensive stats like OPS+ at the same age.  Also, Lindor would not be Lindor without elite defense.  I don't think Jeter, Garciaparra, or Tejada were regarded as elite defenders.  Vizquel, on the other hand, never was in Lindor's class of hitter.

Also, to be fair, I'm comparing that signing to what 2 HoF-level guys produced and 2 other guys who were on that track at that point in their careers.  I think I saw that that is the 3rd biggest contract to date?  For that money, I think you should be getting a likely hall of famer.  Lindor needs to keep up his fielding and stick at SS for 6 or so years to be a HoF candidate, I think.  Could happen, but there's a lot of risk that's not discounted.
Very good ball player. The Phils took criticism for signing Harper to a contact that carries him until age 38 as an OF. So all I’m saying is that for a defensive position it’s even more questionable to sign a guy to that age.  He’s been up and down offensively in his career.  One really big year. His value is based quite a bit on defense as you say. I think eventually you would move him to 2B.

Online Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 18710
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #54: April 01, 2021, 04:10:55 PM »
Career OPS +.

Correa 126
Lindor 117
Turner. 116
Story. 114



Online Slateman

  • Posts: 56397
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #55: April 01, 2021, 05:03:44 PM »
compare his offensive numbers by age through age 27 to that '90s group. He's well below all of them.  If you want to call him a plus bat, I'm going to say you are a smart man, but his D along with his O is what makes his case.  I'll take Story's bat going forward, but he doesn't give you the D.  If they are both 3rd basemen in 6 years, Story will have higher value at that time, but I'll guess Lindor stays at SS 3-4 years longer than Story.
The 90s were all roiders.

How many shortstops in the last 10 years have three seasons of 30+ home runs?  Since being a full time starter in 2016, Lindor has the most WAR of any shortstop. The dude is elite.

Oh and I dont know what the freak you're on about with Trevor Story's defense.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 30570
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #56: April 02, 2021, 07:55:58 AM »
The 90s were all roiders.

How many shortstops in the last 10 years have three seasons of 30+ home runs?  Since being a full time starter in 2016, Lindor has the most WAR of any shortstop. The dude is elite.

Oh and I dont know what the freak you're on about with Trevor Story's defense.
yes, Story is good defensively too.  Bad example.  Should have said Seager. 

compare his offensive numbers by age through age 27 to that '90s group. He's well below all of them.  If you want to call him a plus bat, I'm going to say you are a smart man, but his D along with his O is what makes his case.  I'll take Story's bat going forward, but he doesn't give you the D.  If they are both 3rd basemen in 6 years, Story will have higher value at that time, but I'll guess Lindor stays at SS 3-4 years longer than Story.  

Note- edited to remove stupid point. Story's defense is fine.  Seager is closer to an average fielder with a bigger bat

Online Slateman

  • Posts: 56397
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #57: April 02, 2021, 08:13:01 AM »
Seager should he playing third base and probably will be in a couple years. Im hoping the Nats can sign him this offseason to play third.

Online Slateman

  • Posts: 56397
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #58: April 04, 2021, 03:49:14 PM »
Phillies sweep the Braves to start the season

Online Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 18710
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #59: April 04, 2021, 04:07:45 PM »
Phillies sweep the Braves to start the season
Does Waffle House have a special after a sweep?

Offline Smithian

  • Posts: 9818
  • Team America 2020
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #60: April 05, 2021, 11:00:14 AM »
The 90s were all roiders.

How many shortstops in the last 10 years have three seasons of 30+ home runs?  Since being a full time starter in 2016, Lindor has the most WAR of any shortstop. The dude is elite.

Oh and I dont know what the freak you're on about with Trevor Story's defense.
Ian Desmond had three straight 20+ homer seasons and it felt like he was a monster.

I'm a bit nervous about the Mets. We don't need Cohen turning them into a competent organization.

Offline Kevrock

  • Posts: 12991
  • I have no idea what I’m doing
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #61: April 05, 2021, 11:44:52 AM »
Sorry, never circled back on this thread. I think it's been covered, but I view Lindor as elite. I like any stats from last year with a grain of salt. Lindor is also a great clubhouse presence and fan fav. Perfect FACE OF THE FRANCHISE. And I was really looking forward to the meltdown when they DIDN'T extend him that felt so imminent.

OTOH, Cohen is a complete disaster on Twitter. That will be fun to watch.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 30570
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #62: April 05, 2021, 05:23:43 PM »
Sorry, never circled back on this thread. I think it's been covered, but I view Lindor as elite. I like any stats from last year with a grain of salt. Lindor is also a great clubhouse presence and fan fav. Perfect FACE OF THE FRANCHISE. And I was really looking forward to the meltdown when they DIDN'T extend him that felt so imminent.

OTOH, Cohen is a complete disaster on Twitter. That will be fun to watch.
My garbled posts I don't think argued he was not elite, just that a big chunk of the eliteness comes from his D at SS. 

Online Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 18710
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #63: April 08, 2021, 08:21:15 AM »
NL East standings look sweet. 

 :couch:

Offline nfotiu

  • Posts: 4082
  • Juan Soto aka Human Wildcat
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #64: April 08, 2021, 04:51:29 PM »
Conforto with the walk off HBP by leaning his elbow pad well into the strike zone.   HP Umpire calls it a strike before realizing it nicked him and changed it to hbp.   Mets announcers even thought it was a terrible call and kind of shocked he got away with it.   It's time to adjust how that is called!

Online Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 18710
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #65: April 08, 2021, 05:33:25 PM »
Conforto with the walk off HBP by leaning his elbow pad well into the strike zone.   HP Umpire calls it a strike before realizing it nicked him and changed it to hbp.   Mets announcers even thought it was a terrible call and kind of shocked he got away with it.   It's time to adjust how that is called!
It was a strike and he put his elbow into it so even by the current rules should have been a strike.

Offline nfotiu

  • Posts: 4082
  • Juan Soto aka Human Wildcat
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #66: April 08, 2021, 06:02:42 PM »
Yeah they need to start calling it and making it reviewable.  It’s one thing when a guy sacrifices his elbow for the hbp, but sticking out a protruding piece of plastic makes it even more annoying.

Online imref

  • Posts: 33654
  • Redemption
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #67: April 08, 2021, 06:25:52 PM »
the umpire said afterwards he blew the call and that the pitch was in the strike zone.

Online Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 18710
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #68: April 08, 2021, 07:22:22 PM »
the umpire said afterwards he blew the call and that the pitch was in the strike zone.
Nice when they admit it.

Online imref

  • Posts: 33654
  • Redemption
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #69: April 08, 2021, 07:38:01 PM »
Nice when they admit it.

it would be nicer if there were a way to reverse the decision.

Offline nfotiu

  • Posts: 4082
  • Juan Soto aka Human Wildcat
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #70: April 08, 2021, 08:46:20 PM »
it would be nicer if there were a way to reverse the decision.
It seemed like that one could have been done on the field.  He called it a strike at first, so he knew it was in the zone.   Is the strike zone part a rule?   I know the player needs to get out of the way, and he pretty obviously leaned in.  It would be nice if he could get some replay assistance on that part because it's hard to see that from behind the plate.

Online Slateman

  • Posts: 56397
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #71: April 08, 2021, 09:04:55 PM »
It seemed like that one could have been done on the field.  He called it a strike at first, so he knew it was in the zone.   Is the strike zone part a rule?   I know the player needs to get out of the way, and he pretty obviously leaned in.  It would be nice if he could get some replay assistance on that part because it's hard to see that from behind the plate.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://mlb.mlb.com/documents/0/8/0/268272080/2018_Official_Baseball_Rules.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjs_rbV-u_vAhUqKVkFHXixCLIQFjACegQIDBAC&usg=AOvVaw1jsx9XBUBtY0SLWf4472Ak

Rule 5.05(b)(2)
 (2)  He is touched by a pitched ball which he is not attempting to hit unless (A) The ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or (B) The batter makes no attempt to avoid being touched by the ball;

If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a strike, whether or not the batter tries to avoid the ball. If the ball is outside the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a ball if he makes no attempt to avoid being touched.


Yes, the strike zone is part of the rule. Thats what makes the home plate umpire's ruling so egregious. The replay clearly shows it was a strike. He was in the process of ringing him up on a strike zone.

Heres the video


Seems pretty obvious it was a strike. Conforto made no attempt to avoid it.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

  • Posts: 3971
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #72: April 08, 2021, 09:13:25 PM »
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://mlb.mlb.com/documents/0/8/0/268272080/2018_Official_Baseball_Rules.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjs_rbV-u_vAhUqKVkFHXixCLIQFjACegQIDBAC&usg=AOvVaw1jsx9XBUBtY0SLWf4472Ak

Rule 5.05(b)(2)
 (2)  He is touched by a pitched ball which he is not attempting to hit unless (A) The ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or (B) The batter makes no attempt to avoid being touched by the ball;

If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a strike, whether or not the batter tries to avoid the ball. If the ball is outside the strike zone when it touches the batter, it shall be called a ball if he makes no attempt to avoid being touched.


Yes, the strike zone is part of the rule. Thats what makes the home plate umpire's ruling so egregious. The replay clearly shows it was a strike. He was in the process of ringing him up on a strike zone.

Heres the video


Seems pretty obvious it was a strike. Conforto made no attempt to avoid it.

Conforto better wear some football padding under his uniform the next time he bats against the Fish.  That's freaking egregious.  It's worse that he got away with it, but it's absolute chicken crap even without that.

It seemed like that one could have been done on the field.  He called it a strike at first, so he knew it was in the zone.   Is the strike zone part a rule?   I know the player needs to get out of the way, and he pretty obviously leaned in.  It would be nice if he could get some replay assistance on that part because it's hard to see that from behind the plate.

Yes.  If a pitch is a strike, it's a strike regardless of whether it hits the dude and regardless of whether he tries to avoid it.  But just see David Ortiz's career for how frequently that's enforced.

Online JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 30570
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #73: April 08, 2021, 09:22:28 PM »
Conforto better wear some football padding under his uniform the next time he bats against the Fish.  That's freaking egregious.  It's worse that he got away with it, but it's absolute chicken crap even without that.

Yes.  If a pitch is a strike, it's a strike regardless of whether it hits the dude and regardless of whether he tries to avoid it.  But just see David Ortiz's career for how frequently that's enforced.
max's no hitter that should have been a perfect game.

Online varoadking

  • Posts: 28113
  • King of Goodness
Re: 2021 NL East
« Reply #74: April 08, 2021, 09:41:12 PM »
max's no hitter that should have been a perfect game.

One of two...