Author Topic: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league  (Read 606 times)

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Online bluestreak

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MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Topic Start: December 16, 2020, 03:37:46 PM »
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30531397/mlb-reclassifies-negro-leagues-major-league?platform=amp

The big effect will be on records as all those stats will now be included. I don’t think it changes any all time leaders though. Hank Aaron will still be 2 HR behind Bonds. Josh Gibson second behind Ruth in OPS, etc.

Online imref

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #1: December 16, 2020, 03:51:02 PM »
:clap:

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #2: December 16, 2020, 05:46:04 PM »
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/30531397/mlb-reclassifies-negro-leagues-major-league?platform=amp

The big effect will be on records as all those stats will now be included. I don’t think it changes any all time leaders though. Hank Aaron will still be 2 HR behind Bonds. Josh Gibson second behind Ruth in OPS, etc.
Gibson I think takes the top in a few rate categories.  About 4 guys move into the top 10 career batting averages.  Ruth I think gets bumped.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #3: December 16, 2020, 06:01:08 PM »
I would guess that Satchel Paige’s records would really take a jump.

Offline Five Banners

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #4: December 16, 2020, 06:27:03 PM »
Gibson I think takes the top in a few rate categories.  About 4 guys move into the top 10 career batting averages.  Ruth I think gets bumped.

I think the reason the wording was that a stat re-examination was gonna happen by MLB, Elias, etc. was in part to brace for the possibility that more work is going to be done in the compilations with advanced search capabilities than super imposition of records from decades-old accounts.

Some people pointed out that apparently, some estimates and accounts came from barnstorming and exhibitions that were something close to apples to apples to be applied, the records of major leaguers like Ruth might have to be elevated as far as totals. We’ll see how much contextualization  is actually applied and what standards are used going forward.

Offline Mathguy

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #5: December 16, 2020, 10:46:22 PM »
It is not a good idea to combine stats and redo the top list, for the players faced different competition.

Online bluestreak

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #6: December 16, 2020, 11:04:17 PM »
It is not a good idea to combine stats and redo the top list, for the players faced different competition.

Is this serious? I mean Ruth and Cobb are atop a ton of leaderboards and they didn’t really face the top competition either.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #7: December 16, 2020, 11:06:03 PM »
It is not a good idea to combine stats and redo the top list, for the players faced different competition.
But the National League and American League also faces totally different competition. And yet they combine the records.

Offline DCFan

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #8: December 17, 2020, 07:24:33 AM »
Is this serious? I mean Ruth and Cobb are atop a ton of leaderboards and they didn’t really face the top competition either.

He's right. They might as well include Japan, Korea, Mexico, and Latin America. We're all the same and we're all equals. Right?

Online imref

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #9: December 17, 2020, 08:29:39 AM »
This gives DC three more titles.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #10: December 17, 2020, 09:16:16 AM »
This gives DC three more titles.
No, Japan won those. 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #11: December 17, 2020, 02:51:01 PM »
He's right. They might as well include Japan, Korea, Mexico, and Latin America. We're all the same and we're all equals. Right?
yabut we know more clearly the level of competition in those leagues are AAA or lower because players over there have become free agents or been posted, and we've had guys like Pork Chop Pugh go over there and tear those leagues up. By all evidence, the Negro League players were MLB caliber and could move over quickly. That, and the barnstorming integrated games were competitive. 


Offline 1995hoo

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #13: December 19, 2020, 11:46:15 AM »
If they add the Negro Leagues to the record book, then I believe Josh Gibson becomes the most recent player to bat .400 for a full season (1943) if he had enough at-bats. But the statistics I can find online underscore the problem: Seems like different sites give different numbers for him that year. From what I understand, that’s always been the difficulty with Negro League statistics—they simply weren’t maintained as reliably as MLB statistics were and they can’t always be reconstructed properly.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #14: December 19, 2020, 02:34:50 PM »
If they add the Negro Leagues to the record book, then I believe Josh Gibson becomes the most recent player to bat .400 for a full season (1943) if he had enough at-bats. But the statistics I can find online underscore the problem: Seems like different sites give different numbers for him that year. From what I understand, that’s always been the difficulty with Negro League statistics—they simply weren’t maintained as reliably as MLB statistics were and they can’t always be reconstructed properly.
even if you sort the differences (some include post season and the all star game in the quotes), one issue with rate stats is the season were pretty short in terms of league ball.  70 or so games.  There have been guys to hit .400 for that short of a period.  I think Gwynn did it, and maybe Olerud and Brett.

Offline 1995hoo

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #15: December 19, 2020, 03:16:21 PM »
even if you sort the differences (some include post season and the all star game in the quotes), one issue with rate stats is the season were pretty short in terms of league ball.  70 or so games.  There have been guys to hit .400 for that short of a period.  I think Gwynn did it, and maybe Olerud and Brett.

Very true. I believe MLB said something about how they’d account for that, but I don’t know what the decision was.

Offline Count Walewski

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #16: December 20, 2020, 09:09:54 AM »
I have a buddy who's a bit of an amateur historian of the negro leagues, and he's pretty excited by this because he thinks it will make it easier for fans to learn about negro league players who never made it to MLB. He cited a few guys that I had never heard of who put up really amazing statlines in the negro leagues, but we don't know anything about them, as in like we're not sure when they were born, when they died, what they did after baseball, etc. These guys would have been household names if they had been born a few decades later, it's really sad.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #17: December 20, 2020, 09:39:47 AM »
even if you sort the differences (some include post season and the all star game in the quotes), one issue with rate stats is the season were pretty short in terms of league ball.  70 or so games.  There have been guys to hit .400 for that short of a period.  I think Gwynn did it, and maybe Olerud and Brett.

It’s totally predictable that the mlb would do this for good press and then end up having to piss off a large group that was happy a month  ago when they have to make a decision around Gibson. Once people pay enough attention someone will realize that mlb either does or does not recognize him as the leader

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #18: December 20, 2020, 12:21:58 PM »
What really jumps out from the Negro League stats is just how good Gibson was. Even if you have questions about single-season rate stats, his multi-year rate stats put him in a very short discussion of the GOAT. His rate stats are better than Ruth and Williams, and his power stats blow away Cobb and Hornsby. Bonds is in the discussion, too, but few others.  Add in he was a catcher, the most demanding position, and it is closer to a coin flip with Ruth.

There's another player who figures high on those Negro League stat list that is not talked about as much- I am blanking right now, but something like Cartwright? And the very fact I am blanking is perhaps a sign of how valuable the stats effort will become by adding prominence to guys who were earlier.

Offline hohoho

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Re: MLB recognizes Negro Leagues as a major league
« Reply #19: December 28, 2020, 04:01:27 PM »
He's right. They might as well include Japan, Korea, Mexico, and Latin America. We're all the same and we're all equals. Right?
Well, maybe except for you.