Author Topic: 2021 Hall of Fame  (Read 776 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 18682
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #25: December 07, 2020, 04:32:19 PM »
maybe in philly, but not once he got to AZ.  even in philly, he went to the ws.

Schilling's case is a rate case case for the regular seasons rather than a counting stats case, and is more advanced stats than pitching triple crown.  Yes, he hit 3000 Ks, but otherwise, you have to look at his ERA adjusted for the era he pitched in and you have to look at things like K v. BB. 

best K:BB ratio of  any pitcher with 3000 Ks. Carlton's ERA was 13% better than league average for his career, while Schilling's was 19%, etc...  I still will not say he's better, but I will say you have to look beyond counting and unadjusted rate stats to assess his case.

Of course, the special sauce is his post-season marks that give him a kick towards the HoF beyond the regular season, but his regular season stats establish he was a great pitcher in an era of juiced balls and players.
Schilling benefited from an expanded playoff but you make some good points.  He deserves to be in.  But not as much as Carlton.  4 Cy Young Awards and finished in the top 4 a couple of other times.  Six one hitters.  10 All Star appearances.  254 complete games to 83 for Schilling.  It's quite possible his ERA and other stats would have been better pitching less innings like guys do now. 

EDIT:  If Carlton had not been so stubborn and pitched those last 4 years or so when he clearly didn't have it his career ERA would be much closer to 3.00. 

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 18682
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #26: December 07, 2020, 04:33:22 PM »
My point is that you have to look at all the teams they played for, not just the Phillies.
BTW, Carlton was the only pitcher to win the Cy Young on a last place team, the Phillies. He set a record in accounting for nearly half (46%) of his team's wins, when he won 27 games for the last-place (59–97) Phillies in 1972.
Not saying Schilling doesn't belong, but Carlton was better.
The 27 win year was phenomenal.  Of course he followed that with a 20 loss season. 

Online bluestreak

  • Posts: 10686
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #27: December 10, 2020, 12:26:14 PM »
Is there a real question that Carlton is a better pitcher Schilling?

There is not a group of people more smug and self-important than HoF voters. Never have i encountered a group more holier than thou, that love telling you that they can vote for this and you can't

That being said, I think the thing that turned off some writers was when he suggested hanging journalists. If they want to make him wait because of that, I am not going to be upset. There were more than 10 worthy people on the ballot in years before this one.

Offline imref

  • Posts: 33647
  • Redemption
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #28: January 26, 2021, 06:18:44 PM »
Nobody elected.

71.1% for schilling.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 30532
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #29: January 26, 2021, 08:15:38 PM »
Nobody elected.

71.1% for schilling.
16 short, 14 blanked ballots.  Schilling has asked that his name be taken off the 2022 ballot.

Offline skippy1999

  • Posts: 18792
  • Believe!!!
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #30: January 26, 2021, 08:45:55 PM »
Nobody elected.

71.1% for schilling.

Nobody? Baseball is so stupid.

Offline imref

  • Posts: 33647
  • Redemption
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #31: January 26, 2021, 09:10:11 PM »
16 short, 14 blanked ballots.  Schilling has asked that his name be taken off the 2022 ballot.

I'm good with that. :)

This was probably the best chance Bonds and Clemons had at enshrinement, next year is their last shot.

Next year's new names include are A-ROD, Ortiz, Teixeira, Rollins, Crawford, and Peavy.

Rolen and Wagner really should have done better.

Offline imref

  • Posts: 33647
  • Redemption
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #32: January 27, 2021, 08:53:07 AM »
:hysterical:

Quote
dan haren
@ithrow88
According to twittter I was NOT elected to the baseball hall of fame. They will tell me I’m taken off the ballot next year, but I’d first like to announce that I’m REMOVING MYSELF from next years ballot and any going forward.
#0%

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 30532
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #33: January 27, 2021, 10:32:15 AM »
I'm good with that. :)

This was probably the best chance Bonds and Clemons had at enshrinement, next year is their last shot.

Next year's new names include are A-ROD, Ortiz, Teixeira, Rollins, Crawford, and Peavy.

Rolen and Wagner really should have done better.
next year has to be the reckoning on the 'roid era.  The two biggest suspects and put up or shut up, you have the A-Rod, who confessed and then was caught again, and Ortiz, whose positive was leaked and had a squirrely admission (yes, but I don't know how).  Then there's Manny (caught twice).  By stats, A-Rod, Manny, and Bonds are probably on a short list of the best hitters of all time, and Clemens was a hall of famer even before he met McNamee.

Offline imref

  • Posts: 33647
  • Redemption
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #34: January 27, 2021, 10:39:47 AM »
next year has to be the reckoning on the 'roid era.  The two biggest suspects and put up or shut up, you have the A-Rod, who confessed and then was caught again, and Ortiz, whose positive was leaked and had a squirrely admission (yes, but I don't know how).  Then there's Manny (caught twice).  By stats, A-Rod, Manny, and Bonds are probably on a short list of the best hitters of all time, and Clemens was a hall of famer even before he met McNamee.

it seems to me at least that the steroid guys aren't getting in.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

  • Posts: 16343
  • babble on
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #35: January 27, 2021, 10:46:21 AM »
Dan Haren  :clap: :spit:

Offline imref

  • Posts: 33647
  • Redemption
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #36: January 27, 2021, 04:21:47 PM »
Here's a detailed look at candidate performance this year and what it means for likelihood of making it into the Hall:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/a-candidate-by-candidate-look-at-the-2021-hall-of-fame-election-results/

He notes that the following players are in good shape for eventual election:
- Jeff Kent (though likely by the Veterans committee)
- Andruw Jones
- Gary Sheffield
- Todd Helton
- Billy Wagner
- Scott Rolen

Schilling is of course the wild-card, and one of only two players to get over 70% and not get elected the following year (Jim Bunning being the other)

Offline Count Walewski

  • Posts: 2415
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #37: January 27, 2021, 04:38:34 PM »
It was incredibly stupid for Schilling to say anything. He was close enough this year that he had a decent chance next year, and speaking out just allows writers who don't like him to dunk all over him on Twitter.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 30532
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: 2021 Hall of Fame
« Reply #38: January 27, 2021, 05:30:11 PM »
It was incredibly stupid for Schilling to say anything. He was close enough this year that he had a decent chance next year, and speaking out just allows writers who don't like him to dunk all over him on Twitter.
I thiink at this point he values his profile outside baseball more than the HoF.  He's even said  before that he doesn't think he's a  hall of famer but would be happy if others thought so and elected him. He's not known for humility and is known for stating his views, so I suspect there's truth to that.