Author Topic: 2020 Bullpen  (Read 1551 times)

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Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #100: September 15, 2020, 09:46:31 AM »
Cole is on his third team in 3 years since leaving the Nats in 2018.
Yankees - 2018 - 4.26 / 1.447
Cleveland - 2019 - 3.81 / .1500
Toronto - 2020 - 2.21 / 1.033 (4.14 FIP)

He's having a good year after mediocre years in 18 and 19.

Detwiler is on his 6th team since leaving here in 2015.  This is the first year since then that he's had an ERA below 4.60.

I don't think the arguments that all these relievers flourished after leaving Washington, therefore the Nats can't develop relievers is a strong one.
The FIP this year would indicate he would likely regrew back to his mediocrity next year.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #101: September 15, 2020, 01:30:14 PM »
Rosenthal, Melancon, Kintzler, Clippard, Petit and Holland were all free agent signings. Melancon, Kintzler, Clippard, and Holland were good here. Rosenthal sucked after he left here.

We gave up Treinen for Doolittle. That was fine, considering what we got in return.

The only ones that are questionable are AJ Cole and Ross Detwiler. The Nationals seem very slow to give up on guys starting and converting them to relievers.

Are you saying Melancon, Clippard, and Kintzler were signed as free agents or that they left as free agents?  Neither is right for Kintzler (he was acquired for and then traded away for lottery ticket prospects that didn't hit), and Clippard was acquired for a mediocre reliever and then he was converted into a much better one.  Melancon was acquired in a trade that cost two guys who were eventually lefty relievers and left as a free agent.

The funny thing about the last sentence is that while it's true now, it wasn't back in the day:  Clippard, Stammen (along with Jon Rauch, and maybe others) were failed starters who made the jump successfully to relieving.  Both Fedde and Voth would be obvious conversion candidates at this point if there were anything available to fill the rotation.   Fedde in particular has some potential there.

From watching games around the league, one issue I see the Nats doing weird things unsuccessfully on is pitch mix.  They have guys scrapping curveballs and going with sliders - which seems to be the reverse of what many teams are doing - and they don't seem to be able to teach anyone to throw a decent change-up who didn't already have one.   

Offline zimm_da_kid

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #102: September 15, 2020, 01:37:30 PM »
Clippard has been consistently good since he left us, is consistently affordable, and is a fan favorite.  Why we never try to add him back is beyond me.

Offline Slateman

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #103: September 15, 2020, 01:42:57 PM »
Clippard has been consistently good since he left us, is consistently affordable, and is a fan favorite.  Why we never try to add him back is beyond me.
He may not want to come back to DC

Offline Slateman

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #104: September 15, 2020, 01:44:35 PM »
Are you saying Melancon, Clippard, and Kintzler were signed as free agents or that they left as free agents?  Neither is right for Kintzler (he was acquired for and then traded away for lottery ticket prospects that didn't hit), and Clippard was acquired for a mediocre reliever and then he was converted into a much better one.  Melancon was acquired in a trade that cost two guys who were eventually lefty relievers and left as a free agent.

The funny thing about the last sentence is that while it's true now, it wasn't back in the day:  Clippard, Stammen (along with Jon Rauch, and maybe others) were failed starters who made the jump successfully to relieving.  Both Fedde and Voth would be obvious conversion candidates at this point if there were anything available to fill the rotation.   Fedde in particular has some potential there.

From watching games around the league, one issue I see the Nats doing weird things unsuccessfully on is pitch mix.  They have guys scrapping curveballs and going with sliders - which seems to be the reverse of what many teams are doing - and they don't seem to be able to teach anyone to throw a decent change-up who didn't already have one.   
All have been free agents after their time here.

Also, Kintzler wasnt really well liked by management here . . .

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #105: September 15, 2020, 02:29:43 PM »
All have been free agents after their time here.

Also, Kintzler wasnt really well liked by management here . . .

Ah yeah, got it.  And yeah, Kintzler got tossed in the Shawn Kelley assmobile. 

Offline Duke of Earl

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #106: September 15, 2020, 04:02:22 PM »
all of them who had success before they came here, come here for a season and stink so we cut them only to see them leave and have success again.
 
Clippard certainly doesn't fit that description. Nor does Detwiler.

Offline Slateman

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #107: September 15, 2020, 04:15:15 PM »
 
Clippard certainly doesn't fit that description. Nor does Detwiler.
Holland had success here. Rosenthal flopped after he left here.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #108: September 15, 2020, 05:01:35 PM »
 
Clippard certainly doesn't fit that description. Nor does Detwiler.

Nor does Treinen (no success before DC; wasn't awful with DC, just didn't reach his potential, wasn't "cut" - he was traded for Doolittle); Holland (who had a 0.84 ERA with the Nats - 0.84!) or some of the others.   The only reason Holland was in DC at all is because (1) the Cardinals cut him because he was terrible with them and (2) the Nationals only had to pay him a prorated share of the minimum salary for their flier on him.

Offline Slateman

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #109: September 16, 2020, 04:42:00 PM »
Kyle McGowin has been a nice find. So far at least

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #110: September 16, 2020, 05:31:48 PM »
It's funny, but as bad as the season has been, we may have come up with some good, cheap bullpen pieces in Finnegan, McGowin, and Rainey (assuming he's healthy). 

Offline imref

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #111: September 16, 2020, 05:37:48 PM »
Wander Suero - last 7 outings: 1.29 ERA, 7 IP, 2 HA, 1ER, 3BB, 6Ks, opponents hitting 0.091 against him.

Since august 7 when he gave up 3 ER in 1 IP: 16 games, 18 IP, 13HA, 6ER, 5BB, 19Ks, 3.00 ERA, .197 BA against

Dare I say that Suero has turned into a decent reliever as well?

Offline Slateman

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #112: September 16, 2020, 09:47:02 PM »
It's funny, but as bad as the season has been, we may have come up with some good, cheap bullpen pieces in Finnegan, McGowin, and Rainey (assuming he's healthy). 
Small sample size, but it's a little promising.

Offline Mathguy

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #113: September 16, 2020, 09:50:35 PM »
My !  Slate actually posts something upbeat !

Small sample size, but it's a little promising.

Offline Expos

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #114: September 17, 2020, 01:25:42 AM »
It's funny, but as bad as the season has been, we may have come up with some good, cheap bullpen pieces in Finnegan, McGowin, and Rainey (assuming he's healthy).

All we need is a closer, a setup man and a 7th inning guy. Lol

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #115: September 17, 2020, 04:43:11 PM »
All we need is a closer, a setup man and a 7th inning guy. Lol
I'm getting to the point where I might not mind 7-8-9th guys being McGowin (or Suero), Finnegan, and Rainey, and bringing in the bullpen for under $10MM.  I'm not sure we need Harris and Huddy, and I'd only bring back Doo on a discount.  That said, I'm not cutting those guys, either.  Huddy may need to slip back to a set up role that he prefers and just hand the keys to the 9th to Rainey. Again, provided Rainey is healthy.

Offline Slateman

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #116: September 17, 2020, 05:32:13 PM »
I dont think Huddy wants to close. I think if you moved him somewhere out of that role, he'd be better off.

Still would like to see Cronin on the team

Offline sixthree175

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #117: September 17, 2020, 09:33:19 PM »
I'm getting to the point where I might not mind 7-8-9th guys being McGowin (or Suero), Finnegan, and Rainey, and bringing in the bullpen for under $10MM.  I'm not sure we need Harris and Huddy, and I'd only bring back Doo on a discount.  That said, I'm not cutting those guys, either.  Huddy may need to slip back to a set up role that he prefers and just hand the keys to the 9th to Rainey. Again, provided Rainey is healthy.
Doo has a long track record of excellent performance, but he's not the same pitcher.  What Hudson accomplished last year was absolutely amazing for an unknown journeyman -- our expectations for him need to be lowered a bit.

Offline imref

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #118: September 18, 2020, 02:00:57 PM »
it could always be worse:

Via Matt Gelb:

Quote
The Phillies' bullpen has a 7.05 ERA, which would be the second-worst in baseball history to the 8.01 ERA by the 1930 Phillies. Seven of the 13 worst bullpen ERAs in history are by Philadelphia baseball teams, and it's poetic.

Philly has led in 42 of 49 games and is currently 24-25

Offline Natsinpwc

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #119: September 18, 2020, 02:18:50 PM »
it could always be worse:

Via Matt Gelb:

Philly has led in 42 of 49 games and is currently 24-25
Of course the Nats still have a worse record. Even without an historically bad bullpen. And so it goes. If the Phils keep up the bad bullpen they may have a chance to catch the Nats.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: 2020 Bullpen
« Reply #120: September 18, 2020, 03:08:23 PM »
Doo has a long track record of excellent performance, but he's not the same pitcher.  What Hudson accomplished last year was absolutely amazing for an unknown journeyman -- our expectations for him need to be lowered a bit.

Hudson was hardly an unknown journeyman.  He was quite good before he destroyed his arm.  It's just surprising that he managed to get it back after so long.