Author Topic: Civil War Discussion Thread  (Read 208 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nats2playoffs

  • Posts: 23840
Civil War Discussion Thread
« Topic Start: May 28, 2020, 08:21:48 PM »
With the airing of the 3-part Grant mini-series on the History Channel, I created this  thread for the US Civil War discussion.

After seeing Grant Part I, I was impressed with the huge level of detail in the Wikipedia page for The Battle of Shiloh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Shiloh
It had a lot more information than the History Channel's own site.

When the series ended, I ran across an article that detailed how General Robert E. Lee was indicted for treason by a grand jury, seven weeks after Appomattox. Both the judge and new President Andrew Johnson wanted a trial and conviction.
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/169189

The article was written by John Reeves, promoting his new book, The Lost Indictment of Robert E. Lee: the Forgotten Case Against an American Icon (Rowman & Littlefield, 2018).



    General Grant intended that the Confederate soldiers would not face treason trials and severe punishments. His agreement with Lee at Appomattox concluded, “each officer and man will be allowed to return to his home, not to be disturbed by the United States authority so long as they observe their paroles and the laws in force where they may reside.”

[General] Grant fiercely objected to the decision to indict Lee and the other Confederate leaders. In a letter on Lee’s behalf to Secretary of War Edwin Stanton, Grant wrote:

In my opinion the officers and men paroled at Appomattox C.H. and since upon the same terms given to Lee, can not be tried for treason so long as they observe the terms of their parole…. I will state further that the terms granted by me met with the hearty approval of the President at the time, and of the country generally. The action of Judge Underwood in Norfolk has already had an injurious effect, and I would ask that he be ordered to quash all indictments found against paroled prisoners of war, and to desist from further prosecution of them.


Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 28787
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #1: May 29, 2020, 10:11:41 AM »
In part 3 of Grant, they made the kind of well-observed point about how the trashing of Grant's reputation and the cult of Lee was part of the 'Lost Cause" myth promoted by Southern historians.  What I had not realized was how highly regarded Grant kept his reputation even after his Presidential administration, including during his 2 year world tour when he was out of office. Even until about the turn of the century, his reputation was still up there with Washington and Lincoln (I forget the source they cite for that).  I guess the Lost Cause really got cooking in the 1900s, which makes some sense because it would have been almost 40 years after the War and the folks who  would have been most offended (Grand Army of the Republic Union Veterans) would have been in their 60s by then.

Offline skippy1999

  • Posts: 18587
  • Believe!!!
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #2: May 29, 2020, 10:44:48 AM »
Just started Grant today, it's excellent!  Will delve more into things after I watch all of it.

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 16994
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #3: May 29, 2020, 10:46:37 AM »
In part 3 of Grant, they made the kind of well-observed point about how the trashing of Grant's reputation and the cult of Lee was part of the 'Lost Cause" myth promoted by Southern historians.  What I had not realized was how highly regarded Grant kept his reputation even after his Presidential administration, including during his 2 year world tour when he was out of office. Even until about the turn of the century, his reputation was still up there with Washington and Lincoln (I forget the source they cite for that).  I guess the Lost Cause really got cooking in the 1900s, which makes some sense because it would have been almost 40 years after the War and the folks who  would have been most offended (Grand Army of the Republic Union Veterans) would have been in their 60s by then.
From what I have read it does sound like he had lots of corruption in his administration.  But also had some major accomplishments.  I remember in school in the 1960s the history books seemed to all say the impeachment of Johnson was unfair an Grant was a bad President.  That's a shame. 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 28787
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #4: May 29, 2020, 10:48:55 AM »
From what I have read it does sound like he had lots of corruption in his administration.  But also had some major accomplishments.  I remember in school in the 1960s the history books seemed to all say the impeachment of Johnson was unfair an Grant was a bad President.  That's a shame. 
He had  some corrupt, awful hires, but it did not stick to him too much.  Teflon, I guess, before it was invented and before we knew much about PFOAs.

Offline imref

  • Posts: 31907
  • Redemption
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #5: May 29, 2020, 10:50:39 AM »
Just started Grant today, it's excellent!  Will delve more into things after I watch all of it.

I got through Ep 2 last night, will watch 3 tonight.  They did a really nice job casting the lead actor playing Grant.

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 16994
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #6: May 29, 2020, 10:53:33 AM »
I got through Ep 2 last night, will watch 3 tonight.  They did a really nice job casting the lead actor playing Grant.
Were those real cigars he smoked? He will probably develop threat cancer like Grant did. 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 28787
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #7: May 29, 2020, 10:56:00 AM »
Were those real cigars he smoked? He will probably develop threat cancer like Grant did. 
amazed a guy who  drank whiskey and smoked cigars developed throat cancer.  Next thing you'll tell me is that a guy who drinks whiskey and hot black tea is at elevated risk.  :couch:  My tongue hurts.

Online HalfSmokes

  • Posts: 20660
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #8: May 29, 2020, 10:57:50 AM »
From what I have read it does sound like he had lots of corruption in his administration.  But also had some major accomplishments.  I remember in school in the 1960s the history books seemed to all say the impeachment of Johnson was unfair an Grant was a bad President.  That's a shame. 

historiography is interesting in its own right. So many figures have legacies that are rethought and reinterpreted over and over depending on the climate that the historian is writing in. I don't think it's rare to have a popular figure re-interpreted in a negative light by historians and then rehabilitated by the next generation of historians.

Offline imref

  • Posts: 31907
  • Redemption
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #9: May 29, 2020, 11:00:04 AM »
historiography is interesting in its own right. So many figures have legacies that are rethought and reinterpreted over and over depending on the climate that the historian is writing in. I don't think it's rare to have a popular figure re-interpreted in a negative light by historians and then rehabilitated by the next generation of historians.

Yep.  If you read Ron Chernow's Hamilton biography you'll come away wondering why Thomas Jefferson is so revered in this country's history.  Then you realize that Jefferson, Madison and Monroe, spent years building the legend of Jefferson and trashing Hamilton.

Offline wj73

  • Posts: 662
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #10: June 14, 2020, 08:48:36 PM »
Reading a new book about the western front of the Civil War in New Mexico. I had no idea that there were Civil War battles that far west till last year when I was in NM and went on a NPS ranger hike retracing the Battle of Glorieta Pass. The book is filling in the background for me about those battles.


The interesting thing is that the main forces involved were not just Union and Confederate. Significant players also included the Mexicans and especially the local Native Americans, each of whom had their own interests and were willing to fight for those interests.



The book is called “The Three-Cornered War:  The Union, the Confederacy, and Native Peoples in the Fight for the West” by Megan Kate Nelson.

Online bluestreak

  • Posts: 10301
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #11: June 14, 2020, 11:45:30 PM »
Reading a new book about the western front of the Civil War in New Mexico. I had no idea that there were Civil War battles that far west till last year when I was in NM and went on a NPS ranger hike retracing the Battle of Glorieta Pass. The book is filling in the background for me about those battles.


The interesting thing is that the main forces involved were not just Union and Confederate. Significant players also included the Mexicans and especially the local Native Americans, each of whom had their own interests and were willing to fight for those interests.



The book is called “The Three-Cornered War:  The Union, the Confederacy, and Native Peoples in the Fight for the West” by Megan Kate Nelson.

If you ever make it to Santa Fe, they go over this extensively at the New Mexico history museum.  It’s definitely worth a visit along with the Georgia O Keefe museum.

Offline wj73

  • Posts: 662
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #12: June 15, 2020, 04:07:35 PM »
I was in Santa Fe last year after going to the Balloon Fiesta in ABQ. Did check out the Georgia O’Keefe museum (decided she really wasn’t my cup of tea) and the art museum but not the history museum. We were planning a return trip this October but my guess is that the Balloon Fiesta will be cancelled so we probably will postpone till 2021. But will definitely check out the history museum whenever we do get back, whether this year or next.

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 54695
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #13: June 15, 2020, 04:33:27 PM »
I was in Santa Fe last year after going to the Balloon Fiesta in ABQ. Did check out the Georgia O’Keefe museum (decided she really wasn’t my cup of tea) and the art museum but not the history museum. We were planning a return trip this October but my guess is that the Balloon Fiesta will be cancelled so we probably will postpone till 2021. But will definitely check out the history museum whenever we do get back, whether this year or next.

You dont go to New Mexico for the O'Keefe art work. You go for the food.

Offline imref

  • Posts: 31907
  • Redemption
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #14: June 15, 2020, 05:01:58 PM »
I was in Santa Fe last year after going to the Balloon Fiesta in ABQ. Did check out the Georgia O’Keefe museum (decided she really wasn’t my cup of tea) and the art museum but not the history museum. We were planning a return trip this October but my guess is that the Balloon Fiesta will be cancelled so we probably will postpone till 2021. But will definitely check out the history museum whenever we do get back, whether this year or next.

an hour north or so of Santa Fe is Cimarron NM (just south of the Colorado border).  I spent 10 days in the back country there last summer at the BSA Philmont Scout reservation (which is unfortunately closed again this year).  The town is neat, there's an old hotel with bullet holes still in the walls from Jesse James, or so legend has it.  There is also the BSA museum and the Villa Philmonte, home to the Phillips family in the early 1900s.  Definitely worth a day or two if you are ever out there again.

Online HalfSmokes

  • Posts: 20660
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #15: June 15, 2020, 05:04:01 PM »
White sands is probably makes the trip to New Mexico worth the trip on its own

Offline Count Walewski

  • Posts: 2304
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #16: June 16, 2020, 08:58:38 PM »
Reading the Wikipedia page on Civil War battles in the Southwest (Arizona, New Mexico, etc.) is a real trip. They had "battles" where there were 10 guys on each side.

Offline Slateman

  • Posts: 54695
  • THE SUMMONER OF THE REVERSE JINX
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #17: June 17, 2020, 08:33:38 AM »


Topical video on the projectiles of the Civil War

Offline imref

  • Posts: 31907
  • Redemption
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #18: June 17, 2020, 09:29:43 AM »
anyone ever visit The Wilderness battlefield near Spotsylvania?  I'm interested in checking it out after watching the Grant documentary.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

  • Global Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 28787
  • Platoon - not just a movie, a baseball obsession
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #19: June 17, 2020, 02:01:30 PM »
anyone ever visit The Wilderness battlefield near Spotsylvania?  I'm interested in checking it out after watching the Grant documentary.
years ago, around '01.  I ran into the curator of Pamplin (the private park at Petetrsburg).  There's been a lot of land acquisition since I went so there may be more to see.  Unstaffed.  Worth a visit, and cna be combined easily with Chancellorsville since they overlap.

Offline nats2playoffs

  • Posts: 23840
Re: Civil War Discussion Thread
« Reply #20: June 19, 2020, 03:34:15 PM »
"Thank you for that fine forensic analysis, Mr. Slateman."





Topical video on the projectiles of the Civil War