Author Topic: Astros stealing signs - But Dusty to the Rescue  (Read 9509 times)

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Offline bluestreak

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #300: January 13, 2020, 08:42:50 PM »
Showalter would be a good choice but it might not be the best time for them to hire Washington with his cocaine past.

Is this serious?

Offline Dave in Fairfax

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #301: January 13, 2020, 08:47:07 PM »
So much of the focus has been on Luhnow, Hinch and Cora, and to a lesser extent on Beltran. Here are some excerpts from the report on the Astros players themselves:

Quote
Most of the position players on the 2017 team either received sign information from the banging scheme or participated in the scheme by helping to decode signs or bang on the trash can.  Many of the players who were interviewed admitted that they knew the scheme was wrong because it crossed the line from what the player believed was fair competition and/or violated MLB rules.

Quote
Several players told my investigators that there was a sense of “panic” in the Astros’ dugout after White Sox pitcher Danny Farquhar appeared to notice the trash can bangs.  Before the game ended, a group of Astros players removed the monitor from the wall in the tunnel and hid it in an office.  For the Postseason, a portable monitor was set up on a table to replace the monitor that had been affixed to the wall near the dugout.

Quote
I will not assess discipline against individual Astros players.  I made the decision in September 2017 that I would hold a Club’s General Manager and Field Manager accountable for misconduct of this kind, and I will not depart from that decision.  Assessing discipline of players for this type of conduct is both difficult and impractical.  It is difficult because virtually all of the Astros’ players had some involvement or knowledge of the scheme, and I am not in a position based on the investigative record to determine with any degree of certainty every player who should be held accountable, or their relative degree of culpability.  It is impractical given the large number of players involved, and the fact that many of those players now play for other Clubs.

So, are they all tainted in your opinions? Even otherwise likeable players like Altuve, Correa and Springer? By not naming any names except Beltran, but implicating "most of the position players" in these actions and saying "[m]any ... admitted that they knew the scheme was wrong ...", you do cast a shadow over a large group of players.

Offline Vega

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #302: January 13, 2020, 09:06:32 PM »
I wonder who the Red Sox will go with once the hammer comes down on Cora? Some Rays dude, I guess. Or one of the veteran retreads like Dusty for a year.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #303: January 13, 2020, 09:07:15 PM »
Until proven otherwise, it’s safe to assume everyone employed by the astros during that timeframe is a cheater

Offline Vega

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #304: January 13, 2020, 09:08:52 PM »
Until proven otherwise, it’s safe to assume everyone employed by the astros during that timeframe is a cheater
Except Will Harris. The curly :w: has washed away his sins.

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #305: January 13, 2020, 09:15:32 PM »
So the Astros will have an asterisk next to their title just like the 51 Giants?

Gotta wonder if it carried over to 1954

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #306: January 13, 2020, 09:17:05 PM »
Except Will Harris.

Yeah, if Fiers knew, how didn’t the rest of the staff?

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #307: January 13, 2020, 09:21:55 PM »
Gotta wonder if it carried over to 1954
Their NL title.

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #308: January 13, 2020, 09:42:35 PM »
Their NL title.

 I know, but I'm also curious about their later success  as their 1954 title happened at the polo grounds only three years after the Giants won the pennant

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #309: January 13, 2020, 09:55:57 PM »
 :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:



Offline aBaltoNat

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #310: January 13, 2020, 10:17:40 PM »
So do we cut Harris now?

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #311: January 13, 2020, 10:25:31 PM »
So do we cut Harris now?

He knows the best technology for stealing pitches. I'll bet he doesn't tip his.

Offline nfotiu

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #312: January 13, 2020, 10:32:28 PM »
So do we cut Harris now?
If Mets fire Beltran, Astros release all their hitters who were a part and benefited and then their pitchers, Yankees cut Cole, then I guess there is probably some pressure to release Harris.

 

Offline nfotiu

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #313: January 13, 2020, 10:37:37 PM »
Uh .... Bregman is their best player
Let's see if he can hit pitches when he doesn't know what's coming.   Regardless I take the best starting pitcher in baseball over a top third baseman every day as the best player on a team.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #314: January 13, 2020, 10:46:28 PM »
Let's see if he can hit pitches when he doesn't know what's coming.   Regardless I take the best starting pitcher in baseball over a top third baseman every day as the best player on a team.

WAR and the MVP voters both disagree with you.  Plus Bregman also played 65 games of average-defense SS last year.  It's hard to see how a dude who hits 40 homers while hitting near .300 and leading the league in walks and who can play SS is really ever going to be less valuable than a pitcher.  There's a reason Bregman has finished in the top 5 in MVP voting the last two years and Cole never has. 

Offline aBaltoNat

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #315: January 13, 2020, 11:17:07 PM »
If Mets fire Beltran, Astros release all their hitters who were a part and benefited and then their pitchers, Yankees cut Cole, then I guess there is probably some pressure to release Harris.

I agree. He is good as gone.

Offline nfotiu

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  • Juan Soto aka Human Wildcat
Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #316: January 13, 2020, 11:18:34 PM »
WAR and the MVP voters both disagree with you.  Plus Bregman also played 65 games of average-defense SS last year.  It's hard to see how a dude who hits 40 homers while hitting near .300 and leading the league in walks and who can play SS is really ever going to be less valuable than a pitcher.  There's a reason Bregman has finished in the top 5 in MVP voting the last two years and Cole never has. 
That's fine.  Many MVP voters don't vote for pitchers under any circumstance and are not that reliable anyway.   I'm not at all convinced WAR properly values starting pitchers vs position players, mostly because I don't think it properly accounts for who the realistic replacement is and the rarity of a true ace pitcher.   

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #317: January 14, 2020, 05:10:51 AM »
From the Manfred report: Hinch knew about the scheme and did nothing to stop it other than breaking a few monitors.  Luhnow knew about it in passing and did nothing to stop it.  Crane did not know.  Cora and Beltran were the masterminds.


The repeat nature of this offense in their "championship" (sic) season is why the "we didn't know" needs to be a complete nonstarter.  All of them, including the owner and front office, were publicly called to the carpet for violations previously and were warned of severe consequences were there to be a repeat incident.

On their sports front page today, one of the top stories is a Houston Chronicle commentary entitled "Team owner's reaction shows desire to win the right way". First off, someone looking to "win the right way" reads the riot act to every front office member, coaching staff and player so there is no uncertainty about MLB's warnings. That someone could even cite what happened to a rival who was caught spying on team files electronically. Anyone recall how things were looking as far as their front office during the postseason?

https://mobile.twitter.com/Chandler_Rome/status/1186468857566941184
And then:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Chandler_Rome/status/1186714489883770882

Also, has Crane been known as someone who partitions himself from the work product?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sportsmoney/2011/06/14/why-jim-crane-could-become-baseballs-most-controversial-owner/

It might be just me, but I think there's a fair to middling chance that Crane not only wasn't clueless but was not as hands-on (as he allegedly had been in previous endeavors) as was required to ensure that the Astros committed post-warning to "win the right way" per the Chronicle's remarkable headline.

Offline Slateman

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #318: January 14, 2020, 06:38:40 AM »
Let's see if he can hit pitches when he doesn't know what's coming.   Regardless I take the best starting pitcher in baseball over a top third baseman every day as the best player on a team.


He hits better on the road than at home . . .

Offline Mathguy

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #319: January 14, 2020, 07:07:54 AM »
Your statistics don't mean anything when the data is not representative of the population.  In other words, Bregman's performance over the past 3 years can not be compared with other MLB players.

WAR and the MVP voters both disagree with you.  Plus Bregman also played 65 games of average-defense SS last year.  It's hard to see how a dude who hits 40 homers while hitting near .300 and leading the league in walks and who can play SS is really ever going to be less valuable than a pitcher.  There's a reason Bregman has finished in the top 5 in MVP voting the last two years and Cole never has. 

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #320: January 14, 2020, 08:06:07 AM »
Your statistics don't mean anything when the data is not representative of the population.  In other words, Bregman's performance over the past 3 years can not be compared with other MLB players.
Just check road games.

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #321: January 14, 2020, 08:20:11 AM »
The Astros overall did hit better on the road in 2017. Does that mean anything? Maybe they would have hit even worse at home without the cheating. Why would the most analytically driven team in baseball have continued to do this, even through the postseason, if it conferred no benefit?

Offline hotshot

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #322: January 14, 2020, 08:33:41 AM »
Cora = Not Safe

Beltran and any other Astros players (current or former) = Safe

Showalter should hold out for coming Red Sox vacancy.  Houston is, and will be, just too toxic.

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #323: January 14, 2020, 08:35:38 AM »
My favorite part of every cheating scandal is when the people who went to extreme lengths to cheat then claim that the cheating didn't help.

Just guys setting up a bunch of TVs in the dugout, monitoring every pitch of every game, banging on trash cans and whistling to hitters to signal pitches...just for a lark everybody!


Online Natsinpwc

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #324: January 14, 2020, 08:44:31 AM »
The Astros overall did hit better on the road in 2017. Does that mean anything? Maybe they would have hit even worse at home without the cheating. Why would the most analytically driven team in baseball have continued to do this, even through the postseason, if it conferred no benefit?
Stupidity?