Author Topic: Astros stealing signs  (Read 3229 times)

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Offline The Chief

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #76: November 14, 2019, 03:39:45 PM »
Not sure why I’m a quoted moron :lol:

I had to shore up my case and two quotes wasn't cutting it! :mg:

Right? The boss can be the boss but the overreaction about a hypothetical is funny.

Unless I'm using mod powers, I'm just another poster.  And calling my reaction an overreaction is not entirely warranted - I'm prone to hyperbole but the sentiment behind it is valid - just seems like an awfully negative line of thought with nothing to prompt it (although Kevrock's justification makes sense)

Quote
I'm a WVU Mountaineer and if we won it all in MBB or football, just like we did as Nats fans, I would not care two craps if we were proven to be the Reggie Bush USC Trojans 8 years after said championship.

That's a personal philosophy I suppose but I'd be very disappointed if it turned out that we cheated our way to the first WS championship as a franchise and the city's first in 95 years.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #77: November 14, 2019, 04:01:46 PM »
Uhm. :D

...And calling my reaction an overreaction is not entirely warranted - I'm prone to hyperbole...

Offline The Chief

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #78: November 14, 2019, 04:05:50 PM »
Uhm. :D


Hence "not entirely", as in "I quoted Chief's post to make a point, but not entirely" :P

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #79: November 14, 2019, 04:08:03 PM »
Dinosaur rules.

Hence "not entirely", as in "I quoted Chief's post to make a point, but not entirely" :P

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #80: November 14, 2019, 04:42:18 PM »
Well if you were a patriots fan you are just waiting so you can feel vindicated in the sense you arent the only cheater club that got caught
skippy and I thank you, as would PatsNats28 if he checks back in.  :)

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #81: November 14, 2019, 05:02:27 PM »
What is it about those New England teams?

Might have been a joke, but I think New England (and New York) teams are more likely to cheat because of the spotlight/pressure to win.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #82: November 14, 2019, 08:28:32 PM »
Might have been a joke, but I think New England (and New York) teams are more likely to cheat because of the spotlight/pressure to win.

Someone needs to tell the knicks how to cheat

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #83: November 14, 2019, 08:37:20 PM »
Someone needs to tell the knicks how to cheat
they just are very good at throwing games. Practice makes perfect

Online bluestreak

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #84: November 14, 2019, 08:40:40 PM »
Would people really not care if their favorite teaM cheated to win the championship? I think it would taint it significantly.

Would it be different if it was found out all the Nats batters used corked bats?
Would we feel differently if we found out the Nats had bribed umpires?

If so, then it’s just a Matter of degree, no?

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #85: November 14, 2019, 09:07:39 PM »
Ok, because I am a Patriots fan, I suppose I know the thought process. First, you tend to question whether there was a rule violation if you can. For Spygate, I thought BB's reading of where you can film was a better reading of what the rule at the time said and that the interpretation they got him on was not matching up to the rule. As a lawyer, I felt the league could not make it stick before a neutral judge, therefore Goodell stinks.

The next type of mental gymnastics is the "well, even if it did happen, we still won after that so it made no difference. This is sort of the F.U. Tour. Perfect regular season after the Jets game in the spygate season, trouncing the Colts in the 2d half after the ref grabbed Brady's soft balls. The line about the Astros road record being better than home is like this.

If the lead comes from someone who was inside your team, then there is a villain. Mangino, Floyd Landis. I will guess some folks are thinking this about Fiers.

Doubting the proof is a 4th thing you do. Deflategate? Noble gas law shows that the pressure drop was caused by the temperature change. There wasn't enough time for the guy holding the balls to deflate them in the bathroom. Don't know the Astros equivalent.

Offline imref

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #86: November 14, 2019, 09:16:32 PM »
Doo chimes in. Worth a read:
https://twitter.com/whatwoulddoodo/status/1195155364917981184?s=21

There are several messages in the thread

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #87: November 14, 2019, 10:18:12 PM »
Would people really not care if their favorite teaM cheated to win the championship? I think it would taint it significantly.

Would it be different if it was found out all the Nats batters used corked bats?
Would we feel differently if we found out the Nats had bribed umpires?

If so, then it’s just a Matter of degree, no?

Reminds me of Bill Simmons tweeting in 2009 about being tempted to smash his sox WS DVDs when the news came out about Ortiz and the ped test list like he had felt when news came out about Manny, iirc.

Offline Kevrock

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #88: November 14, 2019, 10:52:06 PM »
Doo chimes in. Worth a read:
https://twitter.com/whatwoulddoodo/status/1195155364917981184?s=21

There are several messages in the thread


Good stuff.

Offline skippy1999

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #89: November 15, 2019, 12:14:37 AM »
Ok, because I am a Patriots fan, I suppose I know the thought process. First, you tend to question whether there was a rule violation if you can. For Spygate, I thought BB's reading of where you can film was a better reading of what the rule at the time said and that the interpretation they got him on was not matching up to the rule. As a lawyer, I felt the league could not make it stick before a neutral judge,therefore Goodell stinks.

This is cracking me up :lol:

Offline Dave in Fairfax

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #90: November 15, 2019, 10:07:50 AM »
Ok, because I am a Patriots fan, I suppose I know the thought process. First, you tend to question whether there was a rule violation if you can. For Spygate, I thought BB's reading of where you can film was a better reading of what the rule at the time said and that the interpretation they got him on was not matching up to the rule. As a lawyer, I felt the league could not make it stick before a neutral judge, therefore Goodell stinks.

The next type of mental gymnastics is the "well, even if it did happen, we still won after that so it made no difference. This is sort of the F.U. Tour. Perfect regular season after the Jets game in the spygate season, trouncing the Colts in the 2d half after the ref grabbed Brady's soft balls. The line about the Astros road record being better than home is like this.

If the lead comes from someone who was inside your team, then there is a villain. Mangino, Floyd Landis. I will guess some folks are thinking this about Fiers.

Doubting the proof is a 4th thing you do. Deflategate? Noble gas law shows that the pressure drop was caused by the temperature change. There wasn't enough time for the guy holding the balls to deflate them in the bathroom. Don't know the Astros equivalent.
There is another aspect of the thought process, which I believe we've heard anonymously from some in the Astros organization or at least from Astros defenders, which is that they were only doing it in response to other teams' doing it. Ironically, this reminded me of Chris Correa, because he alleged that he only illegally accessed the Houston databases because someone from Houston was illegally accessing the St. Louis databases.

It's not quite "everybody does it, so it's no big deal." More, "we only did what we had to do; we had no choice." As an ethicist, I have a general theory that most people do not affirmatively choose to do things they know to be wrong. Rather, they convince themselves that they have no choice, or that others have forced the choice on them. This is part of the appeal of victimology, as it frees you from moral responsibility for your choices, since they aren't really choices.

This also implicates game theory, and can thus draw in the person who would otherwise, given his druthers, choose to do the right thing. There is a principle of positive reciprocity which says you encourage others to do the right thing by setting an example of doing the right thing. But there is also a principle of negative reciprocity which says you discourage others from doing the wrong thing by responding in kind, since otherwise they benefit from their behavior and have no incentive to stop. So there can be a set of thought processes that go from "I choose to do the wrong thing" to "I have no choice but to do the wrong thing" to "It is my duty to do the wrong thing, lest others get away with it." And society circles the toilet bowl on the way down.

On a less serious note, has anyone here seen the video someone made of a Yankees player facing the Astros, which then cut to the footage of Brett Gardner hitting his bat against the dugout roof, and then cut to the Yankee hitting a home run?

Offline 3bside

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #91: November 15, 2019, 10:37:10 AM »
Huge kudos should go out to Nats management -- Rizzo, Martinez, Menhart, whoever -- for taking steps to thwart the Astros cheating (rather than just complaining, like the Yankees).  The fact that we won all 4 games in Houston basically confirms that we counteracted whatever they were trying.

Offline Copecwby20

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #92: November 15, 2019, 11:08:06 AM »
On a less serious note, has anyone here seen the video someone made of a Yankees player facing the Astros, which then cut to the footage of Brett Gardner hitting his bat against the dugout roof, and then cut to the Yankee hitting a home run?


I saw it on twitter a little bit ago. It was funny.

Offline vicki4471

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #93: November 15, 2019, 11:47:13 AM »
I can only speak for myself, but it would absolutely change my feelings about the championship this year if it came to light the Nats did this stuff. I don't champion cheaters in any situation. If you can't win it the right way you do not deserve it. Just my personal opinion.

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #94: November 15, 2019, 11:52:29 AM »
I can only speak for myself, but it would absolutely change my feelings about the championship this year if it came to light the Nats did this stuff. I don't champion cheaters in any situation. If you can't win it the right way you do not deserve it. Just my personal opinion.

I'm sure the Nationals are working right up the the edge of the unwritten rules - who wouldn't?

There's no evidence that they've ever stepped over. Let's not sour our feelings over a hypothetical. :)

Offline imref

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #95: November 15, 2019, 12:01:46 PM »

I saw it on twitter a little bit ago. It was funny.

I posted it a few days ago in the 'we did it' thread.

Offline hohoho

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #96: November 15, 2019, 01:04:32 PM »
There is another aspect of the thought process, which I believe we've heard anonymously from some in the Astros organization or at least from Astros defenders, which is that they were only doing it in response to other teams' doing it. Ironically, this reminded me of Chris Correa, because he alleged that he only illegally accessed the Houston databases because someone from Houston was illegally accessing the St. Louis databases.

It's not quite "everybody does it, so it's no big deal." More, "we only did what we had to do; we had no choice." As an ethicist, I have a general theory that most people do not affirmatively choose to do things they know to be wrong. Rather, they convince themselves that they have no choice, or that others have forced the choice on them. This is part of the appeal of victimology, as it frees you from moral responsibility for your choices, since they aren't really choices.

This also implicates game theory, and can thus draw in the person who would otherwise, given his druthers, choose to do the right thing. There is a principle of positive reciprocity which says you encourage others to do the right thing by setting an example of doing the right thing. But there is also a principle of negative reciprocity which says you discourage others from doing the wrong thing by responding in kind, since otherwise they benefit from their behavior and have no incentive to stop. So there can be a set of thought processes that go from "I choose to do the wrong thing" to "I have no choice but to do the wrong thing" to "It is my duty to do the wrong thing, lest others get away with it." And society circles the toilet bowl on the way down.

On a less serious note, has anyone here seen the video someone made of a Yankees player facing the Astros, which then cut to the footage of Brett Gardner hitting his bat against the dugout roof, and then cut to the Yankee hitting a home run?
Most do the wrong thing simply because they see it as in their best interest and don't bother to rationalize it. The Astros' excuse that others do it is for public consumption, just like all their lies.

Offline vicki4471

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #97: November 15, 2019, 01:47:18 PM »
I'm sure the Nationals are working right up the the edge of the unwritten rules - who wouldn't?

There's no evidence that they've ever stepped over. Let's not sour our feelings over a hypothetical. :)

Nothing has soured. I was just responding to the "none of you would complain if the Nats did it" bunch. I would definitely be upset. I am not naive enough to think the Nats dont skirt the edges at times.. Doolittle put it best and I agree with him... Person to person relaying is one thing but the technology involved took it to a whole other level. Who didn't during school days share information about an exam or a trick question with a pal taking the test at a different time.. in another period. I know I did.. but I never hacked into the computers and outright stole a test. Has a championship team ever been stripped of a title?

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #98: November 15, 2019, 02:24:52 PM »
:thumbs:
Nothing has soured. I was just responding to the "none of you would complain if the Nats did it" bunch. I would definitely be upset. I am not naive enough to think the Nats dont skirt the edges at times.. Doolittle put it best and I agree with him... Person to person relaying is one thing but the technology involved took it to a whole other level. Who didn't during school days share information about an exam or a trick question with a pal taking the test at a different time.. in another period. I know I did.. but I never hacked into the computers and outright stole a test. Has a championship team ever been stripped of a title?

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #99: November 15, 2019, 02:41:23 PM »
Someone needs to tell the knicks how to cheat

:lmao:

They probably missed their chance.  Paying off refs in the early 00s would have been a piece of cake.