Author Topic: Astros stealing signs  (Read 3346 times)

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Offline bluestreak

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #125: November 19, 2019, 12:55:38 PM »
Coming into the Playoffs, the Astros were set to become one of the best teams of all time and perhaps get into dynasty territory with 2 championships in 3 years. 6 weeks later they have one championship that's tainted and are the biggest heel team in the sport...

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #126: November 19, 2019, 01:03:00 PM »
Coming into the Playoffs, the Astros were set to become one of the best teams of all time and perhaps get into dynasty territory with 2 championships in 3 years. 6 weeks they have one championship that's tainted and are the biggest heel team in the sport...

One wonders now how freaking glad they are they got Osuna.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #127: November 19, 2019, 01:20:17 PM »
Is it more embarrassing to have been caught cheating and won a world series championship, or to have been caught cheating and lose the World Series??

My answer depends on whether or not the mlb has the balls to make them take down a banner (kind of like a reverse ring ceremony)

Offline GburgNatsFan

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #128: November 19, 2019, 01:42:12 PM »
My answer depends on whether or not the mlb has the balls to make them take down a banner (kind of like a reverse ring ceremony)

Even better if they made them do it before the first game of the season... in front of a live crowd.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #129: November 19, 2019, 02:01:51 PM »
My answer depends on whether or not the mlb has the balls to make them take down a banner (kind of like a reverse ring ceremony)
I don't think you can award the WS to the doyers, so maybe they do like the Tour de France in the Armstrong years with no recognized champ.

I think more likely is some serious fines, lost draft picks, suspensions, and international signing money caps. 

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #130: November 19, 2019, 02:08:52 PM »
I don't think you can award the WS to the doyers, so maybe they do like the Tour de France in the Armstrong years with no recognized champ.

I think more likely is some serious fines, lost draft picks, suspensions, and international signing money caps.

They have 1994 as a precedent

Offline bluestreak

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #131: November 19, 2019, 02:34:38 PM »
The most they can be fined in $2 million. I expect that the draft penalty will be severe and that the Astros won't have any bonus money for at least a year. The Cards lost their top two draft picks when they got busted hacking the Astros. And their investigation revealed only one guy was involved.
This appears to be systemic so I imagine the penalties will be worse and there will likely be suspensions.

I don't think there is any mechanism to vacate a title.

I can't tell you how much the Nats saved MLB's bacon by beating Houston. This would be ten times worse if they had won.

That being said, I bet the first thing MLB did was to check and see if the Nats (and likely 2017 Dodgers) were clean...

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #132: November 19, 2019, 02:39:47 PM »
I don't think there is any mechanism to vacate a title.

Isn't "the best interest of baseball" supposedly the most broad power any sports commissioner has?

Offline nfotiu

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #133: November 19, 2019, 03:39:16 PM »
Are they going to make us play the Yankees in December to keep the title?

Offline Kevrock

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #134: November 19, 2019, 03:48:07 PM »
The most they can be fined in $2 million.

Why?


Offline Five Banners

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #136: November 19, 2019, 04:13:02 PM »
Are they going to make us play the Yankees in December to keep the title?

Looking forward to it

Offline Slateman

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #137: November 19, 2019, 04:14:10 PM »
Are they going to make us play the Yankees in December to keep the title?

Bring it the freak on

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #138: November 19, 2019, 04:35:16 PM »
Apparently it's in the MLB constitution amended in 2000, which increased the maximum fine from $250,000

https://books.google.com/books?id=1vgW6wleOFUC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=why+is+2+million+dollars+maximum+fine+mlb&source=bl&ots=DZYCtSp99F&sig=ACfU3U3Bwxmofr8d_rN5fjfnnb9ltTlrTQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwitkPOel_flAhUEc98KHSxhDjs4FBDoATADegQICRAB#v=onepage&q=why%20is%202%20million%20dollars%20maximum%20fine%20mlb&f=false




That’s on a club- is there any limit on an individual fine - mlbpa would normally be the ones screaming bloody murder, but I doubt they’d care if a manager or gm or every front office employee involved was fined

Offline djbaseball13

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #139: November 19, 2019, 09:30:39 PM »
I'm shocked that a writer-turned-exec and a bunch of Wall St./Consultant bros not only cheated, but acted so damn arrogant the entire time that everyone wants to see them go down. Just a complete turd organization and it starts with ownership. So glad we whooped their asses. It's too bad Astros fans are in total denial about all of this.

The assistant GM who gloated about getting Osuna was just the tip of the iceberg. crap, this is the same team that acted racist against Yu Darvish and it was totally OK. Clean house. Hinch should be gone for at least a year (Sean Payton style), because he's obviously in on this and if he was one of the ring leaders, then just tell him to pound sand. Luhlow should be gone, and good riddance.

Not all Astros fans are in denial. I live here in TX, and one Astros fan that I know is DONE with the team. He says he is throwing away all his Astros T-shirts, and memorabilia. And, I noticed that he was wearing a non-baseball hat instead of his usual Astros hat last week when I saw him. I'm sure he would proudly wear an AL championship hat under normal circumstances. 

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #140: November 20, 2019, 09:03:18 AM »
Maybe guys like Springer, Altuve, Correa, and Bregman will turn out to be frauds, or more likely Reddick and Brantley will drop off due to age and lack of help, but you'd think that these guys have enough talent to still be a terrific team without the cheating.  Do people think the stuff they do with spin rates and movement in their scouting and work with pitchers is all a fraud?  I mean Keuchel and even Fiers were good after they left, so there has to be something to their methods.  That makes the sign stealing using equipment all the harder to understand.  It's the extra 2%, but it is through insider trading and Milken / Boesky methods rather than being a better quant.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #141: November 20, 2019, 09:56:55 AM »
Maybe guys like Springer, Altuve, Correa, and Bregman will turn out to be frauds, or more likely Reddick and Brantley will drop off due to age and lack of help, but you'd think that these guys have enough talent to still be a terrific team without the cheating.  Do people think the stuff they do with spin rates and movement in their scouting and work with pitchers is all a fraud?  I mean Keuchel and even Fiers were good after they left, so there has to be something to their methods.  That makes the sign stealing using equipment all the harder to understand.  It's the extra 2%, but it is through insider trading and Milken / Boesky methods rather than being a better quant.

I don't think any rational person thinks this is all fraud, or even largely fraud.  But the fact that Bonds and Rodriguez were all-time talents without PEDs doesn't excuse the PEDs or mean they shouldn't have their wounds rubbed with salt and lemon juice for all time.

Offline djbaseball13

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #142: November 21, 2019, 08:35:37 PM »
I don't think any rational person thinks this is all fraud, or even largely fraud.  But the fact that Bonds and Rodriguez were all-time talents without PEDs doesn't excuse the PEDs or mean they shouldn't have their wounds rubbed with salt and lemon juice for all time.

Good analogy.  If the Astros are that good (as they appear to be) then stealing signs is just pitiful. Thats like Tiger Woods asking for a mulligan

Offline hohoho

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #143: November 22, 2019, 10:30:18 AM »
MLB announces expanding investigation to 2018 and 2019.
Doh! Why would they stop, it won them a WS?

Offline Slateman

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #144: November 22, 2019, 11:25:57 AM »
MLB announces expanding investigation to 2018 and 2019.
Doh! Why would they stop, it won them a WS?
Just wait until it expands to other teams

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #145: November 22, 2019, 11:26:55 AM »
Baseball is the one sport stupid enough to launch an internal investigation that releases findings undermining the credibility of the game

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #146: November 22, 2019, 12:00:19 PM »
Baseball is the one sport stupid enough to launch an internal investigation that releases findings undermining the credibility of the game
yes.  They should follow the NFL and hide things like brain injuries and domestic violence if they want a lucrative TV contract. 

Offline Elvir Ovcina

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #147: November 22, 2019, 12:01:42 PM »
Baseball is the one sport stupid enough to launch an internal investigation that releases findings undermining the credibility of the game

Quoth the NCAA (both basketball and football): "Hold my beer."

Offline nfotiu

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #148: November 22, 2019, 04:09:14 PM »
If anyone has mlb.tv subscription, they have all the full games available.  I watched the bottom of the first, and there is definitely whistling going on before Max's 6th and 7th pitches which were both takes on off speed pitches.   You can hear it through the rest of the inning at times too.   It went away when there was someone on second for a while, but picked up again a few pitches later once they started tracking the more complex signs.   Funny thing, there is a pretty obvious whistle before the 2-2 change up that struck out Bregman when he swung anyway.

Pitch 19, there is a completely different sounding, very distinctive whistle and Gurriel hits his 2 rbi double off the wall off a high fastball like he knows it is coming.

Offline Five Banners

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Re: Astros stealing signs
« Reply #149: November 22, 2019, 08:49:00 PM »
If anyone has mlb.tv subscription, they have all the full games available.  I watched the bottom of the first, and there is definitely whistling going on before Max's 6th and 7th pitches which were both takes on off speed pitches.   You can hear it through the rest of the inning at times too.   It went away when there was someone on second for a while, but picked up again a few pitches later once they started tracking the more complex signs.   Funny thing, there is a pretty obvious whistle before the 2-2 change up that struck out Bregman when he swung anyway.

Pitch 19, there is a completely different sounding, very distinctive whistle and Gurriel hits his 2 rbi double off the wall off a high fastball like he knows it is coming.

I watched the game recap they had for game 5 against the Rays. When the Astros put up four in the first, one radio commentator said "it's like they almost know what's coming"