The Turner Call (very bad!)

[Minty Fresh]

#Word

“Worst announcerz in hizt’ry!”  Until they agree with your agenda.... 

[miller10]

(Image removed from quote.)

Epic Baghdad Bob reference! 

[Natsinpwc]

So....  Joe Torre correctly interprets the rule agreeing with me and you got me in checkmate?

Kate Upton is with you.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/27961906/umps-controversial-call-game-6-draws-strong-reaction-players-fans

[Mighty Casey]

first, the scumpire waited until the entire play was finished - and since the Nats were in a better position, 'suddenly' he decides Turner is out...however, Turner went down the line straight (different than going down the line after a bunt or dropped 3rd strike...he is entitled to run to the base....the throw was a bit wide and the FB was stretching to catch it, but caught Turner's side....if this 'rule' is true, then all a FBman has to do is wave his glove towards the running, then claim interference....all BS by the carload, as was Torre's non-explanation....these scumpires are being paid per bad call against the Nats, and by now must have racked up thousands between their roving strike zone and bogus rule interpretations...what a shame...thought DM was about to whack the home plate ump in the nose....

[spidernat]

Torre on MLB network now

He was pathetic

[Minty Fresh]

first, the scumpire waited until the entire play was finished - and since the Nats were in a better position, 'suddenly' he decides Turner is out...however, Turner went down the line straight (different than going down the line after a bunt or dropped 3rd strike...he is entitled to run to the base....the throw was a bit wide and the FB was stretching to catch it, but caught Turner's side....if this 'rule' is true, then all a FBman has to do is wave his glove towards the running, then claim interference....all BS by the carload, as was Torre's non-explanation....these scumpires are being paid per bad call against the Nats, and by now must have racked up thousands between their roving strike zone and bogus rule interpretations...what a shame...thought DM was about to whack the home plate ump in the nose....

You still don’t get it.

(11) In running the last half of the distance from home base to first base, while the ball is being fielded to first base, he runs outside (to the right of ) the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of ) the foul line, and in the umpire’s judgment in so doing interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base, in which case the ball is dead; except that he may run outside (to the right of ) the three-foot line or inside (to the left of ) the foul line to avoid a fielder attempting to field a batted ball;

 Rule 5.09(a)(11) Comment: The lines marking the three-foot lane are a part of that lane and a batter-runner is required to have both feet within the three-foot lane or on the lines mark- ing the lane. The batter-runner is permitted to exit the three- foot lane by means of a step, stride, reach or slide in the imme- diate vicinity of first base for the sole purpose of touching first base.

[Elvir Ovcina]

You still don’t get it.

You still haven't done anything to convince anyone that the comment shouldn't have made the exercise of the umpire's judgment in the main text of the rule extremely simple.  Regardless of where he was earlier in the path down the line, Turner was in the immediate vicinity of the base when the throw came.  At that far down the line, there was nowhere else he could have been.

Unless you're seriously contending that the rules of baseball require runners to get out of the way to allow fielders to field errant throws, I don't know what your point is.  The text of the rule allows the umpire to make a call last night in this situation, and then the comment makes abundantly clear that he shouldn't. 

[Minty Fresh]

You still haven't done anything to convince anyone that the comment shouldn't have made the exercise of the umpire's judgment in the main text of the rule extremely simple.  Regardless of where he was earlier in the path down the line, Turner was in the immediate vicinity of the base when the throw came.   

In running the last half of the distance from home base to first base, while the ball is being fielded to first base, he runs outside (to the right of ) the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of ) the foul line,

At what point was Turner in that running lane? 

I’ll wait...

The lines marking the three-foot lane are a part of that lane and a batter-runner is required to have both feet within the three-foot lane or on the lines mark- ing the lane. The batter-runner is permitted to exit the three- foot lane by means of a step, stride, reach or slide in the imme- diate vicinity of first base for the sole purpose of touching first base.

[Mathguy]

Doesn't this play with Trea Turner running to 1st base show MLB that 1st base has to be moved to the right, so all of 1st base is in the running lane ?

[Minty Fresh]

Doesn't this play show MLB that 1st base has to be moved to the right, so all of 1st base is in the running lane ?

No.

The batter-runner is permitted to exit the three- foot lane by means of a step, stride, reach or slide in the imme- diate vicinity of first base for the sole purpose of touching first base.

[Chelsea_Phil]

After seeing Harold Reynold's explanation as to why the umpire's decision was correct, I don't know what to think.  Maybe by the explicit wording of the rules it is, but it is like seeing Lebron James take three steps before dunking the ball to win Game 6 of the NBA playoffs, and having a referee call traveling on him.  Would never happen in the NBA, and for good reason - let the players play (within reason)!

[nfotiu]

In running the last half of the distance from home base to first base, while the ball is being fielded to first base, he runs outside (to the right of ) the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of ) the foul line,

At what point was Turner in that running lane? 

I’ll wait...

Does any right handed batter run in that lane when they are trying to beat out a play at first?

In Torre's first interview on Fox, he said that the base path rule wasn't a factor in this decision.  It was just that he interfered with the play.

In his second interview, he changed the story and said the base path rule is applicable here, because he was inside the basepath and his movement from inside to touch the base could have interfered with the first baseman catching it.  Regardless, it is still a judgement call whether Turner actually did something to interfere, and it is a pretty crappy judgement call to say he did.   

[Minty Fresh]

Does any right handed batter run in that lane when they are trying to beat out a play at first?

I don’t have the data on how many batter-runners comply with the rule.

In Torre's first interview on Fox, he said that the base path rule wasn't a factor in this decision.  It was just that he interfered with the play.

In his second interview, he changed the story and said the base path rule is applicable here, because he was inside the basepath and his movement from inside to touch the base could have interfered with the first baseman catching it.  Regardless, it is still a judgement call whether Turner actually did something to interfere, and it is a pretty crappy judgement call to say he did.   

Because “baseline” isn’t the correct term when applying this play to first base only. 

Had Turner been in the running lane and interfered with the first baseman fielding that ball he would have been ruled “safe” because he was in the designated batter-runner lane. It’s not a judgement call if Turner runs in the running lane.

He’s a professional athlete. If within 45 feet he can’t get to the running lane then he shouldn’t be a professional athlete.

[mitlen]

I come back to the consistency of the calls.   I'd like to see a comparison of Turner's other routes to first compared to each other and to other similar plays by other players.    How many of the similar routes were called interference?      I know the glove came off the first baseman but that was due to a bad throw.    I think the glove coming off (hit by TT) gave the umpires shade to call whatever they wanted.

[Natsinpwc]

In running the last half of the distance from home base to first base, while the ball is being fielded to first base, he runs outside (to the right of ) the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of ) the foul line,

At what point was Turner in that running lane? 

I’ll wait...

His last stride was straight. So that must have been it.

I think the problem is the interpretation and judgment. We all have seen many times where the runner was much further into the field and yet interference is not called. If he was running all the way in the running lines he still would have been in the way of the throw. Because the throw was so bad.  And Gurriel was clearly expecting a throw into the field.

[Minty Fresh]

After seeing Harold Reynold's explanation as to why the umpire's decision was correct, I don't know what to think.  Maybe by the explicit wording of the rules it is, but it is like seeing Lebron James take three steps before dunking the ball to win Game 6 of the NBA playoffs, and having a referee call traveling on him.  Would never happen in the NBA, and for good reason - let the players play (within reason)!

This is the best description of that play anyone has offered.

I would say, however, we’d be screaming from the mountaintops if that was Alex Bregman instead of Trea Turner and he’d been ruled “safe” instead of out.

[mitlen]

His last stride was straight. So that must have been it.

I think the problem is the interpretation and judgment. We all have seen many times where the runner was much further into the field and yet interference is not called. If he was running all the way in the running lines he still would have been in the way of the throw. Because the throw was so bad.  And Gurriel was clearly expecting a throw into the field.

IMHO   Gurriel is not a very good defensive first baseman   ....   not only in this instance.

[Natsinpwc]

After seeing Harold Reynold's explanation as to why the umpire's decision was correct, I don't know what to think.  Maybe by the explicit wording of the rules it is, but it is like seeing Lebron James take three steps before dunking the ball to win Game 6 of the NBA playoffs, and having a referee call traveling on him.  Would never happen in the NBA, and for good reason - let the players play (within reason)!

The crab dribble never gets called! 

I think that’s the point. Let the players play. He was not in the running lane but we have all seen players farther into the field not be called out.

[Minty Fresh]

His last stride was straight. So that must have been it.

I think the problem is the interpretation and judgment. We all have seen many times where the runner was much further into the field and yet interference is not called. If he was running all the way in the running lines he still would have been in the way of the throw. Because the throw was so bad.  And Gurriel was clearly expecting a throw into the field.

Turner never once at any point was in the running lane and left it open to an umpire’s interpretation. Plus, they even went to replay and took extra time to get the call right.

Ponder this:  what if that was Alex Bregman instead of Trea Turner and he’d been ruled “safe” instead of out?

[Natsinpwc]

IMHO   Gurriel is not a very good defensive first baseman   ....   not only in this instance.

In his defense, he was expecting the throw to be towards second. Which is where it should have been to avoid all this discussion.

The problem I am still having is it’s a judgment call. That gives them the out to call it any way they want. As Smoltz said it’s just like pass interference. Guess what happened with that.

[mitlen]

Ponder this:  what if that was Alex Bregman instead of Trea Turner and he’d been ruled “safe” instead of out?

Did he drop his bat?     

[Minty Fresh]

His last stride was straight. So that must have been it.

https://www.mlb.com/news/trea-turner-first-base-call-world-series-game-6

When was Turner in the lane?

[Minty Fresh]

Did he drop his bat?     

[Minty Fresh]

In his defense, he was expecting the throw to be towards second. Which is where it should have been to avoid all this discussion.

That’s why the catcher has to field that ball.

[Slateman]

After seeing Harold Reynold's explanation as to why the umpire's decision was correct, I don't know what to think.  Maybe by the explicit wording of the rules it is, but it is like seeing Lebron James take three steps before dunking the ball to win Game 6 of the NBA playoffs, and having a referee call traveling on him.  Would never happen in the NBA, and for good reason - let the players play (within reason)!

This is the best description of that play anyone has offered.

I would say, however, we’d be screaming from the mountaintops if that was Alex Bregman instead of Trea Turner and he’d been ruled “safe” instead of out.

Then the rule is broken because it's physically impossible to step on first base (which the right most edge of the base is in line with the baseline) without part of the body being to the left of the baseline.

If this is actually the correct interpretation, every first baseman should literally stand with their foot on the baseline, two feet away from first towards home plate and have the fielder throw them the ball there. Every baserunner will have to either interfere with the first baseman, or veer off to the right, likely missing first base all together.