Author Topic: EXTEND DAVEY  (Read 2729 times)

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Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #25: October 11, 2019, 08:20:46 AM »
Get outta here. You wanted him fired lol. Bandwagons....
to some extent, this is just a troll the troll (PB69) thread. It's largely in good humor, time to eat your words.  Also, at least for me, I enjoy laughing at my mistakes and misjudgments when nothing bad results from them. 

Davey did turn a few people around during the year as folks saw how he managed the players he had.  He didn't seem to have a touch last year that way.  Players who had flourished under the prior manager (Taylor, Kintzler, Kelley, etc...) seemed to take steps back and few seemed to get better.  Add in the open sore that a few high profile contracts were, coming off 2 very good regular seasons, and griping was natural. This year, it seemed for the first half, the only bullpen decision that had decent odds of being correct was to go to Doo, and a lot of us at the time recognized he would wear down.  How much of that was Lilliquist (not being diligent in helping his pitchers), Rizzo (lack of talent and misspent budget), or Davey (bad in game and season strategy) was up in the air, but the results weren't.  As the season moved on and the roster improved, a lot of good moves became more apparent.  He managed Kendrick's workload well, he seems to have figured out how to use Doo effectively given where he is in his recovery, he definitively figured who in his bullpen he could trust, etc...  He does seem a bit of a play the hot hand type (explains use of Doo early in the season, Cabrera down the stretch, the use of RZ, and the reliance on the starters in relief).  If Dusty were a regular season manager and less of a game manager, I think Davey is more of the latter, and that may work better in the playoffs.

Offline Slateman

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #26: October 11, 2019, 08:32:10 AM »
There were very, very few fans who didn't think he should be fired back in May and even June.


I also wanted to hire him years ago.

Online Natsinpwc

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #27: October 11, 2019, 08:44:26 AM »
I wanted to let him go to take him out of his misery. I think most of us thought when he hired he must have something going for him or Madden would never have kept him as his chief assistant for so long. Then we get this guy who seems totally lost and can’t put a couple of sentences together. In the end the players seem to like him and he is likely much brighter than he can put across verbally. Kind of a Yogi Berra without all the cute malaprops. I do notice that he is much better at expressing himself now that the team is winning. He just seemed totally flummoxed earlier this year in the little I saw of his press conferences.

In the end I don’t think managers and game strategy matters much. Most people here thought Corbin should not pitch the other night but he was fine.  For me, most of his decisions so far in the postseason have made sense regardless of the outcome. Maybe he just knows the team better? Or listening to his coaches more? Or maybe his luck has just turned around. Whatever it is I hope it keeps going. But it’s up to the players to produce.

Offline Greg_SRT

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #28: October 11, 2019, 08:53:32 AM »
There were very, very few fans who didn't think he should be fired back in May and even June.

Well many fans are pretty casual and don’t understand baseball.


Offline hotshot

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #29: October 11, 2019, 09:17:09 AM »
No question he's earned an extension. More importantly, what would the Lerner's be willing to pay him now that he has some leverage? 

Offline blue911

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #30: October 11, 2019, 09:17:14 AM »
Riding Doo like he was a rented mule was the right decision. So what if he broke, he had Hudson and two others to carry the load. Without abusing Doolittle there isn’t a chance in hell the team would be close enough to make a push in August and September.

Offline Slateman

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #31: October 11, 2019, 09:22:05 AM »
Well many fans are pretty casual and don’t understand baseball.

(Image removed from quote.)
Actually, no. Most fans are not casual. This isn't football or basketball. There aren't a lot of people who randomly watch a nationally broadcasted game. Most baseball fans are passionate about their team, and are regionally focused when it comes to baseball. They are also usually older and have been following baseball much longer than the average football or basketball fan. So they have a far better understanding of baseball then their counterparts in other sports. Sites like fangraphs simply wouldn't exist if they didn't.

Honestly, the only thing that probably saved Martinez' job at this point was players coming out to back him. He made a ton of questionable decisions throughout the season. But he managed to keep the ship calm and let the talent get them back to the playoffs. But to try and pretend like the "casual" fan isn't knowledgeable to look at the season on May 23rd and think that Martinez' shortcomings were a problem is either being completely unknowledgeable about baseball themselves, or is trolling.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #32: October 11, 2019, 09:23:45 AM »
Riding Doo like he was a rented mule was the right decision. So what if he broke, he had Hudson and two others to carry the load. Without abusing Doolittle there isn’t a chance in hell the team would be close enough to make a push in August and September.
Well, he broke Doo before Hudson showed up, so it was nice that one of the 3 arms Rizzo came up with at the deadline was a timely replacement.

Offline awbb

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #33: October 11, 2019, 09:25:28 AM »
I like that Davey embraces analytics but isn't a slave to them...he still is "old school" at times in just going with your gut and what your eyes tell you versus always following a spreadsheet.

Tell that to Dave Roberts!


Offline blue911

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #34: October 11, 2019, 09:27:47 AM »
Well, he broke Doo before Hudson showed up, so it was nice that one of the 3 arms Rizzo came up with at the deadline was a timely replacement.

Look at his splits, Doo didn’t crater until August

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #35: October 11, 2019, 09:29:57 AM »
Well, he broke Doo before Hudson showed up, so it was nice that one of the 3 arms Rizzo came up with at the deadline was a timely replacement.

Would have been nice if there would have been more competent arms aside from Doo in the first place.  Rizzo doesn't get let off the hook because he waited until the deadline to take off some of the pressure.

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #36: October 11, 2019, 09:32:39 AM »
Look at his splits, Doo didn’t crater until August
but he rode him before that.  I think we are in agreement, though -  he worked Doo hard when he had nothing else, and had some confidence that Rizzo would keep on bringing in bullpen arms until they ended up with another that worked.
Would have been nice if there would have been more competent arms aside from Doo in the first place.  Rizzo doesn't get let off the hook because he waited until the deadline to take off some of the pressure.
yes, it would have been nice. Can't say they did not try, just it was one massive fail (Rosenthal, Barraclough, Rodney, some guys who never made it out of their minor league contracts) after another.

Offline blue911

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #37: October 11, 2019, 09:34:07 AM »
Would have been nice if there would have been more competent arms aside from Doo in the first place.  Rizzo doesn't get let off the hook because he waited until the deadline to take off some of the pressure.

No argument from me. Rosenthal was Rizzo’s latest 100MPH rentboy and the rest weren’t of MLB quality

Offline Greg_SRT

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #38: October 11, 2019, 09:45:11 AM »
Actually, no. Most fans are not casual. This isn't football or basketball. There aren't a lot of people who randomly watch a nationally broadcasted game. Most baseball fans are passionate about their team, and are regionally focused when it comes to baseball. They are also usually older and have been following baseball much longer than the average football or basketball fan. So they have a far better understanding of baseball then their counterparts in other sports. Sites like fangraphs simply wouldn't exist if they didn't.

Honestly, the only thing that probably saved Martinez' job at this point was players coming out to back him. He made a ton of questionable decisions throughout the season. But he managed to keep the ship calm and let the talent get them back to the playoffs. But to try and pretend like the "casual" fan isn't knowledgeable to look at the season on May 23rd and think that Martinez' shortcomings were a problem is either being completely unknowledgeable about baseball themselves, or is trolling.



No sir. You are wrong.

The casual fan doesn’t understand the 162. Which is why the casual fan would panic on May 23. That’s you.

The non-casual baseball fan would know that 1/4 of a season doesn’t tell the story of a team and a season. That’s not you.

Also everyone here was given an opportunity to repent. Remember? And you didn’t step up to the plate for that.

Offline nfotiu

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #39: October 11, 2019, 09:46:27 AM »
Actually, no. Most fans are not casual. This isn't football or basketball. There aren't a lot of people who randomly watch a nationally broadcasted game. Most baseball fans are passionate about their team, and are regionally focused when it comes to baseball. They are also usually older and have been following baseball much longer than the average football or basketball fan. So they have a far better understanding of baseball then their counterparts in other sports. Sites like fangraphs simply wouldn't exist if they didn't.

Honestly, the only thing that probably saved Martinez' job at this point was players coming out to back him. He made a ton of questionable decisions throughout the season. But he managed to keep the ship calm and let the talent get them back to the playoffs. But to try and pretend like the "casual" fan isn't knowledgeable to look at the season on May 23rd and think that Martinez' shortcomings were a problem is either being completely unknowledgeable about baseball themselves, or is trolling.
It doesn't mean a lot of fans aren't short sited when it comes to judging managers decisions.  The right decision blows up a good percentage of the time.  It doesn't mean it was a bad decision.   By and large, I thought most of Davey's decisions over the year were justifiable and done for a reason even if they didn't work out. 

I wasn't calling for his firing in May or June.  We had a ridiculous amount of injuries and a comically bad bullpen.   

Offline nfotiu

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #40: October 11, 2019, 09:49:46 AM »
No argument from me. Rosenthal was Rizzo’s latest 100MPH rentboy and the rest weren’t of MLB quality
Bullpens are a disaster throughout the league though.  We're still alive, and at least 3-4 teams seasons are over mostly because of their bullpens.  Ironically, the Dodgers looked to have the best bullpen around, and are out because they went to Kershaw at the highest leverage situation of their season.

Offline Slateman

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #41: October 11, 2019, 09:51:35 AM »
It doesn't mean a lot of fans aren't short sited when it comes to judging managers decisions.  The right decision blows up a good percentage of the time.  It doesn't mean it was a bad decision.   By and large, I thought most of Davey's decisions over the year were justifiable and done for a reason even if they didn't work out. 

I wasn't calling for his firing in May or June.  We had a ridiculous amount of injuries and a comically bad bullpen.   
This wasn't shortsightedness. We had all of 2018 to evaluate as well. While the bullpen talent wasn't great, Martinez utilized the pen poorly throughout the 2019 season. How many times did he leave Suero out there, when it was obvious he didn't have his stuff? How many times did he have guys pitch multiple innings?

Offline Duke of Earl

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #42: October 11, 2019, 10:03:29 AM »
Dusty was let go because the organization wanted someone who would take the team to the next level.   Martinez did that.  End of discussion.

Offline Greg_SRT

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #43: October 11, 2019, 10:05:30 AM »
Dusty was let go because the organization wanted someone who would take the team to the next level.   Martinez did that.  End of discussion.


Offline Slateman

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #44: October 11, 2019, 10:24:17 AM »
Dusty was let go because the organization wanted someone who would take the team to the next level.   Martinez did that.  End of discussion.
Why do you think I wanted him in the first place? Why you think I started this thread?

But trying to pretend like firing him in May wouldn't have been justified is nonsense.

Offline hotshot

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #45: October 11, 2019, 10:28:32 AM »
No argument from me. Rosenthal was Rizzo’s latest 100MPH rentboy and the rest weren’t of MLB quality
Barraclough has to be singled out along with Rosenthal as major Rizzo blunders. And the BP is still a LONG way from being fixed.

Offline bluestreak

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #46: October 11, 2019, 11:09:38 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)

...


What does being [edit to original post] have to do with this? I mean it helps in many aspects of life, but probably not in baseball analysis.

Edit - original language referred to by Bluestreak has been edited.  Nice catch and call out.

Offline Greg_SRT

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #47: October 11, 2019, 11:19:20 AM »
Barraclough has to be singled out along with Rosenthal as major Rizzo blunders. And the BP is still a LONG way from being fixed.

To be fair to Rizzo, no one could have known that
A) Rosenthal couldn't throw strikes.
B) Barraclough couldn't get outs
C) Sipp couldn't get LHH out.

All 3 had a resume of being able to get it done. The only concerns going into the season were
A) Health (Rosenthal coming back from TJ, Doo going a full season)
B) Will Wander progress, spin his whells, or regress

But we brought in 2 guys with previous successful Closer experience. A Left Handed specialist. Just didn't work out. No way of knowing it wouldn't.

Offline Slateman

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #48: October 11, 2019, 11:43:06 AM »
(Image removed from quote.)

No sir. You are wrong.

The casual fan doesn’t understand the 162. Which is why the casual fan would panic on May 23. That’s you.

The non-casual baseball fan would know that 1/4 of a season doesn’t tell the story of a team and a season. That’s not you.

Also everyone here was given an opportunity to repent. Remember? And you didn’t step up to the plate for that.
You're right, the casual fan doesn't understand the 162. There are very few causal fans in baseball anymore.

The non-casual baseball fan would know that 1/4 of the season doesn't tell the story of a team and a season. But that isn't me either. See there was a season before that in which Davey managed. So no one is basing it on 1/4 of a season, but in fact almost 200 games of evidence.

Nothing to repent for. You, on the other hand, may want to consider repenting for your constant trolling.

Offline UMDNats

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Re: EXTEND DAVEY
« Reply #49: October 11, 2019, 11:47:44 AM »
To be fair to Rizzo, no one could have known that
A) Rosenthal couldn't throw strikes.
B) Barraclough couldn't get outs
C) Sipp couldn't get LHH out.

All 3 had a resume of being able to get it done. The only concerns going into the season were
A) Health (Rosenthal coming back from TJ, Doo going a full season)
B) Will Wander progress, spin his whells, or regress

But we brought in 2 guys with previous successful Closer experience. A Left Handed specialist. Just didn't work out. No way of knowing it wouldn't.


Rosenthal was coming off TJ surgery, had a long history of being wild (career 4.5 BB/9), no reason to believe he was going to suddenly be a 1.50 ERA stud.
Barraclough was even more wild in his history than Rosenthal and was not good in 2018
Sipp's career has been either up or down, and was available for insanely cheap in spring training

There were plenty of huge red flags. Previous closer experience means nothing when it was 4 years ago and he's had TJ surgery since then also just been bad since then. No one could have expected literally all the guys to be terrible, but there was also a huge chance it didn't work out. not like we had three all-stars from 2018 back there.