Author Topic: PB69 presents "Fire Dave Martinez" (2018) (Read 56853 times)

Greg_SRT · « **Reply #1875 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:05:47 pm »

To be fair, if Dave had been thrown out and then we loaded the bases and got walked off people would use that as an example of how Dave is an idiot.

spidernat · « **Reply #1876 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:06:10 pm »

Quote from: mitlen on July 30, 2018, 03:52:48 pm

Might be a mind fact but I remember hearing an adage to the effect that a tough manager (boss) can loosen up but a loose manager (boss) can't get tough. Doesn't work on the guys who've seen him in "action".

that seems right

PowerBoater69 · « **Reply #1877 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:09:24 pm »

Quote from: comish4lif on July 30, 2018, 04:02:26 pm

Does anyone see Davey asn Manny Acta 2.0?

Acta was the better manager, he just had teams that were constructed to tank. Martinez is more like Zorn with goof ball wild ideas.

UMDNats · « **Reply #1878 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:15:11 pm »

Quote from: mitlen on July 30, 2018, 03:52:48 pm

Might be a mind fact but I remember hearing an adage to the effect that a tough manager (boss) can loosen up but a loose manager (boss) can't get tough. Doesn't work on the guys who've seen him in "action".

Probably true, but I doubt it was Davey's call to let Zimmerman skip spring training. I also don't think being "tough" is the only way to win. Players play.

It was always a bad sign that Davey had interviewed for jobs like 6 times but never got hired.

Smithian · « **Reply #1879 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:15:30 pm »

I am not ready to blame Dave Martinez for this crap storm. I think there are probably some weird vibes in the lockerroom, and it does not help that Harper has a foot out the door and a lot of the team veterans have been on DL. The vibe feels very frustrated from the outside.

Happy to give Martinez another season. A whole bunch of bad luck and performance regressions have plagued this team. Seems like a worst case scenario of a season other than Soto raking. If he comes back and it is another disaster, Chip Hale is more than capable of being an in house option.

UMDNats · « **Reply #1880 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:16:27 pm »

https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1024019497999642626

Quote

Have heard from a number of people affiliated with the Nationals since writing this earlier today who have confirmed the central thesis: Washington's clubhouse is a problem, confidence in manager Davey Martinez has eroded and the Nats' trouble runs deep.

But yet, national media thinks we shouldn't sell and that our team isn't "one to give up"

When so many managers have all lost the locker room, it's the players.

GburgNatsFan · « **Reply #1881 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:16:38 pm »

This is the hard part of judging managers. Knowing how much is in their control.

And anything less than full control undermines them.

Quote from: UMDNats on July 30, 2018, 04:15:11 pm

Probably true, but I doubt it was Davey's call to let Zimmerman skip spring training. I also don't think being "tough" is the only way to win. Players play.

It was always a bad sign that Davey had interviewed for jobs like 6 times but never got hired.

PowerBoater69 · « **Reply #1882 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:17:31 pm »

It gets worse, more Nats sources have complained about Martinez since after the original report.

Quote

@JeffPassan Have heard from a number of people affiliated with the Nationals since writing this earlier today who have confirmed the central thesis: Washington's clubhouse is a problem, confidence in manager Davey Martinez has eroded and the Nats' trouble runs deep.

None of this precludes Washington from making a run, of course. Teams that don’t get along still can win. But there are institutional issues with the Nationals that make doing so more difficult -- and above which they have yet to rise en route to a 52-53 record this year.

mitlen · « **Reply #1883 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:17:44 pm »

Quote from: UMDNats on July 30, 2018, 04:15:11 pm

Probably true, but I doubt it was Davey's call to let Zimmerman skip spring training. I also don't think being "tough" is the only way to win. Players play.

It was always a bad sign that Davey had interviewed for jobs like 6 times but never got hired.

It was Zimmerman's call and dave acceded. That set the manager's tone to the team. I don't mean "tough" as in a prick or mean guy. I mean having standards that will be followed .... by all the players.

I agree with your "bad sign" point.

UMDNats · « **Reply #1884 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:18:54 pm »

It's absolutely naive to think Zimmerman made the call unilaterally and that Mike Rizzo was left out of the process. Come the freak on.

Quote

This is the hard part of judging managers. Knowing how much is in their control.

And anything less than full control undermines them.

Managers are the front office's connection to the players. Plenty of managers don't have full control, in fact I would say no manager has full control.

HalfSmokes · « **Reply #1885 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:19:29 pm »

Quote from: mitlen on July 30, 2018, 04:17:44 pm

I mean having standards that will be followed .... by all the players.

Ownership on down is kissing Bryce's ass hoping he'll re-sign. I think that freaks up a clubhouse as much as anything

GburgNatsFan · « **Reply #1886 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:19:36 pm »

Right, and if you don't have confidence in the manager, you simply can't go out on the field and play.

That's just players making excuses.

Quote from: PowerBoater69 on July 30, 2018, 04:17:31 pm

It gets worse, more Nats sources have complained about Martinez since after the original report.

mitlen · « **Reply #1887 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:20:33 pm »

Quote from: UMDNats on July 30, 2018, 04:18:54 pm

It's absolutely naive to think Zimmerman made the call unilaterally and that Mike Rizzo was left out of the process. Come the freak on.

Managers are the front office's connection to the players. Plenty of managers don't have full control, in fact I would say no manager has full control.

OT Who was the QB for the 'skin's who always went to Snyder ... RGIII?

mitlen · « **Reply #1888 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:21:32 pm »

Quote from: HalfSmokes on July 30, 2018, 04:19:29 pm

Ownership on down is kissing Bryce's ass hoping he'll re-sign. I think that freaks up a clubhouse as much as anything

Agreed

The players know dave doesn't "manage" a whole lot. They act accordingly.

UMDNats · « **Reply #1889 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:23:36 pm »

Quote from: mitlen on July 30, 2018, 04:21:32 pm

Agreed

The players know dave doesn't "manage" a whole lot. They act accordingly.

Aaron Boone was hired literally because he'd do what Cashman would say. Yankees seem to be OK.

UMDNats · « **Reply #1890 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:24:17 pm »

Quote from: HalfSmokes on July 30, 2018, 04:19:29 pm

Ownership on down is kissing Bryce's ass hoping he'll re-sign. I think that freaks up a clubhouse as much as anything

This is absolutely a thing, too.

mitlen · « **Reply #1891 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:24:31 pm »

Quote from: UMDNats on July 30, 2018, 04:23:36 pm

Aaron Boone was hired literally because he'd do what Cashman would say. Yankees seem to be OK.

Perhaps the Yankee players are adults.

PowerBoater69 · « **Reply #1892 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:25:04 pm »

Quote from: GburgNatsFan on July 30, 2018, 04:19:36 pm

Right, and if you don't have confidence in the manager, you simply can't go out on the field and play.

That's just players making excuses.

Sure, but we're right back to 2015, a talented team under achieving. A manager change fixed that problem, a manager change caused this problem. Rizzo and the Lerners need to hire a top guy and then back off.

mitlen · « **Reply #1893 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:26:10 pm »

Quote from: PowerBoater69 on July 30, 2018, 04:25:04 pm

Sure, but we're right back to 2015, a talented team under achieving. A manager change fixed that problem, a manager change caused this problem. Rizzo and the Lerners need to hire a top guy and then back off.

That's no way to run a mall.

UMDNats · « **Reply #1894 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:27:10 pm »

Quote from: mitlen on July 30, 2018, 04:24:31 pm

Perhaps the Yankee players are adults.

Oh, they are. That's kind of my point; the players ultimately have to be the ones to do it. Yankees have a good core of guys who are 100% bought-in to the team's structure, philosophy and demands. Veterans like Gardner and Sabathia set the team's tone and the young guys are humbled from day one.

I do think a guy like Werth is missing on this team. Murphy was hurt and isn't that personality. Zimmerman is too low-key. Max is a pitcher and can only do his job 1 every 5 days. If there was a year for Harper to become a leader, it was this year, and he's done the opposite.

PowerBoater69 · « **Reply #1895 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:27:33 pm »

It'll be fun in the clubhouse tomorrow when Martinez walks in and asks who has been talking to the media.

Greg_SRT · « **Reply #1896 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:28:53 pm »

Quote from: PowerBoater69 on July 30, 2018, 04:25:04 pm

Sure, but we're right back to 2015, a talented team under achieving. A manager change fixed that problem, a manager change caused this problem. Rizzo and the Lerners need to hire a top guy and then back off.

If you think that then you aren’t aware of the problem.

mitlen · « **Reply #1897 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:30:58 pm »

Quote from: UMDNats on July 30, 2018, 04:27:10 pm

Oh, they are. That's kind of my point; the players ultimately have to be the ones to do it. Yankees have a good core of guys who are 100% bought-in to the team's structure, philosophy and demands. Veterans like Gardner and Sabathia set the team's tone and the young guys are humbled from day one.

I do think a guy like Werth is missing on this team. Murphy was hurt and isn't that personality. Zimmerman is too low-key. Max is a pitcher and can only do his job 1 every 5 days. If there was a year for Harper to become a leader, it was this year, and he's done the opposite.

The Yankees have a culture of success and "rules" and (help me) playin' the game the right way and rings and a culture .... We don't. Werth had a big impact on setting the tone in the locker room. Not sure we have that "leadership" now either in the clubhouse, front office or from our history. I think we agree more than not.

Natsinpwc · « **Reply #1898 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:33:34 pm »

Lots of blame to go around. Martinez gets the bulk because he is the manager. That's what happens when you sign on. But it seems like many of the players cannot accept it when they don't perform.

If they can get someone like Girardi then do it. Don't fire Martinez to get another guy to learn on the job. At this point I can't understand why they are also set on signing Harper if that's true. He has been a primadonna since the start. If he can hit you can ignore it but they need to move on.

Natsinpwc · « **Reply #1899 on:** July 30, 2018, 04:35:55 pm »

Quote from: PowerBoater69 on July 30, 2018, 04:27:33 pm

It'll be fun in the clubhouse tomorrow when Martinez walks in and asks who has been talking to the media.

Show of hands! Maybe all of them.

We know some of the relief pitchers have complained. Probably Turner now also. In the end it doesn't matter. This is what happens to underachieving teams.