Bryce: All things considered, I'd Rather be in Philadelphia

[Slateman]

You've said a couple of times those were the four worst years of Harpers career. Those were not the four worst. The years before his first MVP season were. Also, the whole original point was the years between the two MVPs were good but not great.

He was voted by the PLAYERS most overrated.

Its dubious to take the four years inbetween his MVP seasons (one of which was a 60 game season) and use that to compare to Howards best 4 seasons.

Why not slide it to left one season? Or to the right? Its cus when you do, Harper is significantly better. And at a younger age.

Also, it is his worst four year stretch. Its the only 4 year stretch where Harper has posted a sub .900 OPS. All others have to include one of his MVP years.

[Slateman]

So the Phils are a .500 team since they got him.
PS: There is always luck in winning a WS. The Nats had exceptional team chemistry, not possible with the self-centered Harper. Harper was among other things a jinx who seemed most proud of his hr derby win.

And the Nats arent. And its already now established how lucky the Nats were.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

By the time Howard had his best years in dc, he was pretty immobile. He may have been a great athlete when he was young, but he was not a threat to do anything defensively by that point. The annoying thing about Harper's D is he's capable, but turns it on and off. 2018, he turned it off, which I think annoys the heck out of folks here.

[welch]

Howard's offensive numbers were boosted by handicapping pitchers in 68. Its no coincidence that he had his best years then.

Look it up, since it's clear you are too young to know much. MLB lowered the mound AFTER 1968. You don't know that? Yet another bit of ignorance so confidently paraded her. Like your claim that Warren Spahn was not as good as some other lefty because Spahn won the CY Young only once...apparently not knowing that the CY Young was first given in 1956 and that it was an award for BOTH the AL and NL. The CY Young for each league was introduced in 1967.

Power forward? A big, dumb, house-plant? Then who was Dave Debuschere, other than a pitcher for the White Sox? Or Tommy Heinsohn? Or a pitcher for the Braves named Gene Conley, who played for the Celtics in the off-seasons? Yes, kids grew up playing all three sports. Ever heard of Tom Brown, from Richard Montgomery HS?

Go through the numbers, remembering that Hondo did not have a real hitting coach until Ted Williams took over the Nats in 1969. Howard's walks jumped from 54 to 102, and his strikeouts dropped from 141 to 96. For that matter, try to find the hitting coach for the Dodgers, or any team, before Charlie Lau about 1970. Teams had coaches, and one might handle the pitchers, but it is hard to find a dedicated hitting coach of the sort that Harper and the rest have had since they were kids.

To repeat, just to be clear: Harper deserved the MVP over Soto, but do not sneer at Frank Howard. Or Harmon Killebrew. That betrays ignorance.

[Slateman]

Look it up, since it's clear you are too young to know much. MLB lowered the mound AFTER 1968. You don't know that? Yet another bit of ignorance so confidently paraded her. Like your claim that Warren Spahn was not as good as some other lefty because Spahn won the CY Young only once...apparently not knowing that the CY Young was first given in 1956 and that it was an award for BOTH the AL and NL. The CY Young for each league was introduced in 1967.

Power forward? A big, dumb, house-plant? Then who was Dave Debuschere, other than a pitcher for the White Sox? Or Tommy Heinsohn? Or a pitcher for the Braves named Gene Conley, who played for the Celtics in the off-seasons? Yes, kids grew up playing all three sports. Ever heard of Tom Brown, from Richard Montgomery HS?

Go through the numbers, remembering that Hondo did not have a real hitting coach until Ted Williams took over the Nats in 1969. Howard's walks jumped from 54 to 102, and his strikeouts dropped from 141 to 96. For that matter, try to find the hitting coach for the Dodgers, or any team, before Charlie Lau about 1970. Teams had coaches, and one might handle the pitchers, but it is hard to find a dedicated hitting coach of the sort that Harper and the rest have had since they were kids.

To repeat, just to be clear: Harper deserved the MVP over Soto, but do not sneer at Frank Howard. Or Harmon Killebrew. That betrays ignorance.

Yes, lowering the mound was done to increase scoring

[Natsinpwc]

Look it up, since it's clear you are too young to know much. MLB lowered the mound AFTER 1968. You don't know that? Yet another bit of ignorance so confidently paraded her. Like your claim that Warren Spahn was not as good as some other lefty because Spahn won the CY Young only once...apparently not knowing that the CY Young was first given in 1956 and that it was an award for BOTH the AL and NL. The CY Young for each league was introduced in 1967.

Power forward? A big, dumb, house-plant? Then who was Dave Debuschere, other than a pitcher for the White Sox? Or Tommy Heinsohn? Or a pitcher for the Braves named Gene Conley, who played for the Celtics in the off-seasons? Yes, kids grew up playing all three sports. Ever heard of Tom Brown, from Richard Montgomery HS?

Go through the numbers, remembering that Hondo did not have a real hitting coach until Ted Williams took over the Nats in 1969. Howard's walks jumped from 54 to 102, and his strikeouts dropped from 141 to 96. For that matter, try to find the hitting coach for the Dodgers, or any team, before Charlie Lau about 1970. Teams had coaches, and one might handle the pitchers, but it is hard to find a dedicated hitting coach of the sort that Harper and the rest have had since they were kids.

To repeat, just to be clear: Harper deserved the MVP over Soto, but do not sneer at Frank Howard. Or Harmon Killebrew. That betrays ignorance.

Not sneering but some folks here said Howard was better and that seems not true. They didn’t have to deal with late inning relief specialists back in the day or even middle inning specialists. The starters didn’t just go through the order two times back then.

And I am old enough to have seen both Howard and Killebrew back in the day. Although not much as they were in the wrong league when I first started watching. Killebrew is a HOFamer. Howard is not. Great slugger though. I saw him in the club area at the 2012 playoffs. 

Always hard to compare players from different eras.  Generally though athletes are in better shape today as they train all year. No one selling insurance in the off-season nowadays.

[hohoho]

And the Nats arent. And its already now established how lucky the Nats were.

“Established” by who? You? Arrogance personified.

[Slateman]

“Established” by who? You? Arrogance personified.

By statistics: https://www.mlb.com/news/biggest-upsets-in-mlb-postseason-history?partnerId=zh-20211006-480569-mlb-1-A&qid=1026&utm_id=zh-20211006-480569-mlb-1-A&bt_ee=sGa%2FKpRRml%2BBEAawx8UFkLfEYRQ9pobm5qyailSWgrDcaxAm4cRy8He%2BYhEaG%2FDV&bt_ts=1633523920429

[Natsinpwc]

“Established” by who? You? Arrogance personified.

How did you establish Harper was a locker room cancer? Seems he got along with everyone in DC and now in Philly.  Have not read a thing about him having problems with teammates.

[varoadking]

How did you establish Harper was a locker room cancer? Seems he got along with everyone in DC and now in Philly.  Have not read a thing about him having problems with teammates.

"Harper has a history of irritating teammates"

https://www.sportscasting.com/bryce-harper-causing-problems-philadelphia/

More importantly...he has a history of irritating me... 

[aspenbubba]

Look it up, since it's clear you are too young to know much. MLB lowered the mound AFTER 1968. You don't know that? Yet another bit of ignorance so confidently paraded her. Like your claim that Warren Spahn was not as good as some other lefty because Spahn won the CY Young only once...apparently not knowing that the CY Young was first given in 1956 and that it was an award for BOTH the AL and NL. The CY Young for each league was introduced in 1967.

Power forward? A big, dumb, house-plant? Then who was Dave Debuschere, other than a pitcher for the White Sox? Or Tommy Heinsohn? Or a pitcher for the Braves named Gene Conley, who played for the Celtics in the off-seasons? Yes, kids grew up playing all three sports. Ever heard of Tom Brown, from Richard Montgomery HS?

Go through the numbers, remembering that Hondo did not have a real hitting coach until Ted Williams took over the Nats in 1969. Howard's walks jumped from 54 to 102, and his strikeouts dropped from 141 to 96. For that matter, try to find the hitting coach for the Dodgers, or any team, before Charlie Lau about 1970. Teams had coaches, and one might handle the pitchers, but it is hard to find a dedicated hitting coach of the sort that Harper and the rest have had since they were kids.

To repeat, just to be clear: Harper deserved the MVP over Soto, but do not sneer at Frank Howard. Or Harmon Killebrew. That betrays ignorance.

Tommy Brown graduated Mongomery Blair not Richard Mongomery

[Slateman]

"Harper has a history of irritating teammates"

https://www.sportscasting.com/bryce-harper-causing-problems-philadelphia/

More importantly...he has a history of irritating me... 

And the only example they give is Papelbon attacking him

[Natsinpwc]

"Harper has a history of irritating teammates"

https://www.sportscasting.com/bryce-harper-causing-problems-philadelphia/

More importantly...he has a history of irritating me... 

Hearsay. If you read more around that time you will find out that Jake Arrieta was the one calling out his teammates when it was his pitching that sucks. Arrieta is basically Papelbon. Of course none of the Nats players in 2018 will go on record. I am sure a losing team with the Harper free agency hanging over them was irritating to all.



https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/2856529-phillies-carlos-santana-fires-back-at-jake-arrieta-after-sps-culture-comments.amp.html

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Just a reminder folks - disagree without being disagreeable. 

Posts on a message board will often come out sharp-edged.  When you think about it, the replier often is motivated by emphatic disagreement enough to react.  Think twice about getting personal in the reply or the rebuttal to the reply.

No specific post is prompting this, just the tone overall in this thread. Clearly it is Harper's fault. I blame his hair, but it is easy for me to blame people with lots of hair.

[varoadking]

Hearsay. If you read more around that time you will find out that Jake Arrieta was the one calling out his teammates when it was his pitching that sucks. Arrieta is basically Papelbon. Of course none of the Nats players in 2018 will go on record. I am sure a losing team with the Harper free agency hanging over them was irritating to all.
https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/2856529-phillies-carlos-santana-fires-back-at-jake-arrieta-after-sps-culture-comments.amp.html

Just wanted to fill the void in your reading program. 

And this is not Hearsay:

More importantly...he has a history of irritating me... 

[Natsinpwc]

Just wanted to fill the void in your reading program. 

And this is not Hearsay:

 

[welch]

Tommy Brown graduated Mongomery Blair not Richard Mongomery

You are right. I was going too fast. I do remember that Brown was from Silver Springs. Told a group of us at Washington Baseball History that he wanted to play both baseball and football in college. (One of his high school buddies said that Brown was a great basketball player, too.) Tom Nugent, head football coach at Maryland, told Brown he would have to play spring football. Brown turned to his father, saying, "That's fine, Dad. Let's drive down to Charlottesville". Nugent backed down. That's how Brown ended up being drafted by the Packers but signing with the Nats. Brown is the only athlete to begin his professional career with the Washington Senators and end it with the Washington Redskins.