2018 bullpen

[Slateman]

Moreover, asking someone else to do research on a point that doesn't respond to the one he's seeking to rebut.  You can't respond to a point about short-term failures by citing a long-term average.   It just doesn't work.

Treinen basically doesn't even look like the same pitcher now.  The A's taught him a cutter, and he's mixing the 2-seamer and 4-seamer well.  Result is you've got 3 fastballs at 3 different speeds and 3 different movement planes.  It gets ugly fast.

They also taught him how to throw the ball over the plate.

[DPMOmaha]

For a Midwesterner you’re not being very friendly.

But I said I believed in you! This is classic midwestern passive-aggressiveness!

[Elvir Ovcina]

They also taught him how to throw the ball over the plate.

I think he knew how, he was just scared stiff in DC.  It was in some ways like watching 2013-era Gio - guy who had plenty of stuff but just wouldn't throw it over the plate.

[aspenbubba]

Already explained. Now be a good lad and dig that up. And while doing that find out how many wins our starters got compared to the rest of the league. We have to get to the bottom of this.

You forgot to tell him to pick up your dry cleaning, two six packs and take out the garbage

[DCFan]

You forgot to tell him to pick up your dry cleaning, two six packs and take out the garbage

A really nice bottle of bourbon would suffice.

[Slateman]

I think he knew how, he was just scared stiff in DC.  It was in some ways like watching 2013-era Gio - guy who had plenty of stuff but just wouldn't throw it over the plate.

It was pretty obvious he didnt know how here in DC.

[Baseball is Life]

They also taught him how to throw the ball over the plate.

Maybe they give him a nut transplant. He clearly didn't have those when he was here in DC.

[Elvir Ovcina]

It was pretty obvious he didnt know how here in DC.

Oh, yes, of course, if you say so.    

A guy comes up who hasn't been walking people in the minors, doesn't walk people as a rookie,  and doesn't walk people again after he leaves, but the problem in DC was apparently that he doesn't know how to throw strikes, rather than something that's not quite so simple. 

Maybe they give him a nut transplant. He clearly didn't have those when he was here in DC.

That's a lot closer.  Can't and won't are significantly different.

[blue911]

Self imposed pressure is a nag. He let the pressure of closing for a 95 win team get in his head. The shame is they don't test for reefer at the major league level.

[Slateman]

Oh, yes, of course, if you say so.    

A guy comes up who hasn't been walking people in the minors, doesn't walk people as a rookie,  and doesn't walk people again after he leaves, but the problem in DC was apparently that he doesn't know how to throw strikes, rather than something that's not quite so simple. 

That's a lot closer.  Can't and won't are significantly different.

1.239 WHIP in the minors. It's not like he had a few innings. He pitched 130+  here and couldn't get the ball over the plate.

[Elvir Ovcina]

1.239 WHIP in the minors. It's not like he had a few innings. He pitched 130+  here and couldn't get the ball over the plate.

His walk rate in the minors was never above 2.5/9 aside from 3 games in rookie ball.  It was 2.5/9 his rookie year with the Nats.  He had 2 seasons with the Nats in which it suddenly went over 4, and then with Oakland it's right back down under 3.   At the same time his walk rate shot up, his hit rate went way down (until his last season in DC, where he just looked completely broken in all ways).   That's the classic pattern of a nibbler, trading hits for walks.  That's not a guy who can't throw strikes.  Guys who can't throw strikes - have no control - still get hit because they  leave stuff in the middle of the plate. 

[Slateman]

His walk rate in the minors was never above 2.5/9 aside from 3 games in rookie ball.  It was 2.5/9 his rookie year with the Nats.  He had 2 seasons with the Nats in which it suddenly went over 4, and then with Oakland it's right back down under 3.   At the same time his walk rate shot up, his hit rate went way down (until his last season in DC, where he just looked completely broken in all ways).   That's the classic pattern of a nibbler, trading hits for walks.  That's not a guy who can't throw strikes.  Guys who can't throw strikes - have no control - still get hit because they  leave stuff in the middle of the plate. 

Couldn't throw strikes in DC. Dont know what to tell you. Neither could Vazquez.

[Expos]

Felipe Rivero/Vazquez.  Forgot about him. Add another stud reliever to the list of guys who sucked here then go on to be studs.

Blake Treinen
72.1 innings, 6 wins, 2 losses, .87 ERA, .871 WHIP, 37 saves

Felipe Vazquez
62 innings, 4 wins, 2 losses, 2.61 ERA, 1.242 WHIP, 32 saves

Tyler Clippard
63.2 innings, 4 wins, 3 losses, 3.68 ERA, 1.168 WHIP, 7 saves

AJ Cole
36 innings, 3 wins, 0 losses, 3.00 ERA, 1.306 WHIP

Yusmeiro Petit
87 innings, 7 wins, 3 losses, 3.10 ERA, 1.034 WHIP

Craig Stammen 
71.1 innings, 8 wins, 2 losses, 2.52 ERA, 1.037 WHIP

Oliver Perez
28.1 innings, 0 wins, 1 loss, .95 ERA, .635 WHIP

Jerry Blevins
38 innings, 3 wins, 2 losses, 3.55 ERA, 1.237 WHIP

[blue911]

Is Solis French?

[Slateman]

And what were Treinen and Vazquez's numbers here?

[Slateman]

DFA Solis, call up Harper

[DCFan]

Is Solis French?

That's a great Q. Who can jump on that for us? 

[NJ Ave]

The Craig Stammen loss hurt, and I still have no reason why we let him walk. We lost him and Buffalo the same way - instead of giving them two-year deals with league minimum first years (to account for their injuries) we let them walk. Now Stammen has had two classic Stammen years of 80 IP, and Ramos has put up an .872 OPS at C.

Gee think we could have used those guys this year?

Since 2012, Stammen has thrown 400 IP of 2.87 ERA relief, and been paid $8 million TOTAL. One of the biggest bargains in baseball.

[DCFan]

The Craig Stammen loss hurt, and I still have no reason why we let him walk.

Was he the one that Rizzo came out with the 8 year lifespan of a rebuilt arm so they let him walk?

[Expos]

And what were Treinen and Vazquez's numbers here?

That's what I'm getting at. Its not just those two guys who have left and gone on to have success. Why is that? Guys spend one year here, stink up the joint, leave and are lights out again.

Maybe we jumped the gun and got rid of them too soon.

Hell even Gott had good numbers for Anaheim before he got traded here.

[dcpatti]

That's what I'm getting at. Its not just those two guys who have left and gone on to have success. Why is that? Guys spend one year here, stink up the joint, leave and are lights out again.

Maybe we jumped the gun and got rid of them too soon.

Hell even Gott had good numbers for Anaheim before he got traded here.

Neither Treinen or Vazquez “stunk up the joint” here. They were good enough pitchers with potential, which is why we were able to trade them for established closers in their prime. No one is going to give you Mark Melancon in exchange for some career minor leaguer.  Would they have reached their potential here? Who knows. But that’s the price you pay when you trade for a closer.

 guess who else has been better with his current team  than with his former team? Sean Doolittle.

[bluestreak]

Why?

These guys came into the games with the game tied or a lead and they blew it. It happened countless times this year.

The starters did their job. The offense did ok in those games but the bullpen was horrendous for the entire year and is arguably the main reason we are not in the playoffs.

It’s an oversimplification because it’s unreasonable to expect your bullpen to have an ERA of 0.00. If the pen comes into a 2-1 game and the Nats lose 3-2 is it the bullpen’s fault or the offense’s? If the relievers give up a 6-5 lead, is it the bullpen’s fault or the starter’s?

Relievers are going to give up runs. This year’s suckage was was an overall team effort.

[Slateman]

Neither Treinen or Vazquez “stunk up the joint” here. They were good enough pitchers with potential, which is why we were able to trade them for established closers in their prime. No one is going to give you Mark Melancon in exchange for some career minor leaguer.  Would they have reached their potential here? Who knows. But that’s the price you pay when you trade for a closer.

 guess who else has been better with his current team  than with his former team? Sean Doolittle.

Treinen and Vazquez stunk here.

[DCFan]

Treinen and Vazquez stunk here.

Treinen showed glimpses but ultimately choked and gagged big time. People here wanted him gone as fast as they did Kelley.

[dcpatti]

Treinen and Vazquez stunk here.

Treinen was kind of a mess in 2017. But in 2016 he was a perfectly average bullpen guy, giving up 1 or fewer hits in 62 of his 73 appearances and stranding all inherited runners in 8 of 30 appearances (didn’t inherit anyone in the other appearances).  2015 Vazquez gave up 0 or 1 hits in 42 of 49 appearances. You can’t judge a relief pitcher solely on ERA because one bad inning blows up the average for months, and that’ one light-up inning is going to be the one we all remember.  A guy who is giving up one or no hits most times he takes the mound is doing his job. By comparison, 2018 Stammen has given 2+ hits on 15 of 66 outings (and I love Stammen and I’m glad to see him doing well).