Author Topic: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)  (Read 156836 times)

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Offline Slateman

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2350 on: November 01, 2015, 12:26:48 pm »
Man, who knew we had a guy so locked-in to the clubhouse and Bryce Harper on our own forum?

tells us more bryce stories

His agent is Boras. And do you really want to sink 40 million a year in to one player?

Offline Optics

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2351 on: November 01, 2015, 12:51:14 pm »
Slate actually makes some good points. Superstars just don't win. Barry Bonds never won, although he got close once in 02. A-Rod never won in Texas, and didn't win until he went to the Yankees where he had a great team around him.

Look at the Royals. They don't have any Harpers or Trouts. But they're a win away from a title.

With that said, you have to ask the question: does trading Harper INCREASE our chances of winning? Is there a team out there willing to give us, say, three B-B+ level players for Harper? If the answer to both of those is yes, then you have to at least consider it.


Offline PC

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2352 on: November 01, 2015, 12:56:09 pm »
Slate actually makes some good points.


Um, no he doesn't.

Offline houston-nat

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2353 on: November 01, 2015, 01:04:05 pm »
Slate actually makes some good points. Superstars just don't win. Barry Bonds never won, although he got close once in 02. A-Rod never won in Texas, and didn't win until he went to the Yankees where he had a great team around him.
Superstars don't make great teams by themselves. But superstars are the START of great teams. I mean, surely you can't think that Barry Bonds couldn't have possibly won no matter what teammates he had. Babe Ruth was in 10 World Series.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2354 on: November 01, 2015, 02:05:24 pm »
Slate makes a good point if their is a team with enough young talent to "set the Nationals up for the next five to ten years" and if that team is willing to trade it all for Harper- I have trouble believing that team actually exists

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2355 on: November 01, 2015, 02:11:51 pm »
What a scorching #hottake.

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2356 on: November 01, 2015, 02:16:17 pm »
I mean, it's amazing that A-Rod went to the playoffs 12/17 years with the Mariners and Yankees, but never won more than 73 games in 3 years with the Rangers. He must have forgotten how to win for 3 years.

It's almost like baseball is a team game and it matters who your organization puts around you.

Offline Slateman

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2357 on: November 01, 2015, 02:30:57 pm »
I mean, it's amazing that A-Rod went to the playoffs 12/17 years with the Mariners and Yankees, but never won more than 73 games in 3 years with the Rangers. He must have forgotten how to win for 3 years.

It's almost like baseball is a team game and it matters who your organization puts around you.

Yes ... A-Rod went to the playoffs ... with a team of All Stars. When he didn't have a team of All Stars, you have the  Rangers. That's what the Nationals are in danger of becoming. They'll have Harper, and aging Scherzer, and an often injured Rendon and Zimmerman.

Offline sizzlin

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2358 on: November 01, 2015, 02:46:48 pm »
Slate actually makes some good points. Superstars just don't win. Barry Bonds never won, although he got close once in 02. A-Rod never won in Texas, and didn't win until he went to the Yankees where he had a great team around him.

Look at the Royals. They don't have any Harpers or Trouts. But they're a win away from a title.

With that said, you have to ask the question: does trading Harper INCREASE our chances of winning? Is there a team out there willing to give us, say, three B-B+ level players for Harper? If the answer to both of those is yes, then you have to at least consider it.

Albert Pujols won with the Cardinals twice.

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2359 on: November 01, 2015, 02:51:49 pm »
Yes ... A-Rod went to the playoffs ... with a team of All Stars. When he didn't have a team of All Stars, you have the  Rangers. That's what the Nationals are in danger of becoming. They'll have Harper, and aging Scherzer, and an often injured Rendon and Zimmerman.

Again, if your point is that it takes more than a single player to be a good baseball team, I'm sure we all appreciate the new information. If your point is, trading Bryce Harper will magically improve the team from a non-playoff team to a playoff team, we can agree to disagree on any number of assumptions that go into that.

If your point is that playoff teams don't have superstars, I think you just don't have a good idea of what a "superstar" means.

Donaldson, Cespedes, Cain, Bryant, Heyward, McCutchen make up 6 of the top 12 hitters in baseball this year by WAR.

Kershaw, Arrieta, Price, Keuchel, Greinke, Cole, DeGrom, Lester make up 8 of the top 13 pitchers.

Of course top players do not guarantee anything, but it's silly to think they're meaningless.


Offline Slateman

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2360 on: November 01, 2015, 03:01:05 pm »
Albert Pujols won with the Cardinals twice.
You mean when he had Lance Berkman, Matt Holiday,  Yadier Molina, and Chris Carpenter on his team?

And the Cardinals have made the playoffs every year he's been gone.

Offline Slateman

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2361 on: November 01, 2015, 03:14:33 pm »
Again, if your point is that it takes more than a single player to be a good baseball team, I'm sure we all appreciate the new information. If your point is, trading Bryce Harper will magically improve the team from a non-playoff team to a playoff team, we can agree to disagree on any number of assumptions that go into that.

If your point is that playoff teams don't have superstars, I think you just don't have a good idea of what a "superstar" means.

Donaldson, Cespedes, Cain, Bryant, Heyward, McCutchen make up 6 of the top 12 hitters in baseball this year by WAR.

Kershaw, Arrieta, Price, Keuchel, Greinke, Cole, DeGrom, Lester make up 8 of the top 13 pitchers.

Of course top players do not guarantee anything, but it's silly to think they're meaningless.



Cain and Heyward don't come close to counting as superstars. Their value in WAR comes primarily from defense. No one is going to seriously consider them for an MVP. And like I said, Donaldson needed two other guys to hit 40 homers, the best shortstop in baseball, and David Price. McCutchen has been surrounded by quite a bit of talent in Kang, Cervelli, Marte, and Polanco, along with a top 3 pitching staff this season. Bryant isn't even the best hitter on his team, let along in baseball. And again, surrounded by talent. Actually, Rizzo was the cornerstone that the Cubs surrounded with talent like Bryant, Soler, Fowler, Schwarber, and Russell

Cespedes is the only one you might be able to make a case for, but again, the Mets surrounded him with good players and a top tier rotation. Cespedes on the Tigers had them below .500.

The Nationals are currently very good two relief pitchers (one of which is a closer), and about 4 good/very good players away from being a competitive team again. On top of that, they have to come up with a replacement for Werth (assuming Robinson can continue to be a quality hitter) who can cover for him when he misses 75 games next season.

They're no where near being a contender. They will not be next season. They  MIGHT be in 2017, but it's doubtful. 2018 is the earliest that open can be reasonably open and that's IF Scherzer is a complete wash AND Giolito pans out AND Joe Ross hasn't torn his UCL AND Rendon hasn't suffered a career ending injury AND Turner has developed in to a decent hitter.

That's a lot of IF's to hang on to a player who you know is gone in three years and the only thing you're going to get out of him is a bunch of media stories and watching him get a couple MVP awards in your stadium. I would much prefer to punt it and build a truly dominant team three years from now.

Oh, and both of the current WS teams traded their supposed superstar and are in the WS because of those trades. The Royals traded Grienke to the Brewers for Alcides Escobar, Lorenzo Cain, Jeremy Jeffress, and Jake Odorizzi. Odorizzi was a key piece that brought Shields and Wade Davis to the Royals. That's three top players as a result of that trade.

Blue Jays traded Travis d'Arnaud and Noah Syndergaard for RA Dickey, who was coming off a Cy Young season. Worked out quite well for the Mets.

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2362 on: November 01, 2015, 03:25:00 pm »
tl;dr

I stopped when you proved my point of not having a good idea of what a superstar is. Picking and choosing which parts of the game you choose to value is fine, but don't expect people to take you seriously.

I guess Dallas Keuchel should be informed he isn't an ace because he doesn't throw 95 MPH.

Offline Slateman

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2363 on: November 01, 2015, 03:35:36 pm »
tl;dr

I stopped when you proved my point of not having a good idea of what a superstar is. Picking and choosing which parts of the game you choose to value is fine, but don't expect people to take you seriously.

I guess Dallas Keuchel should be informed he isn't an ace because he doesn't throw 95 MPH.

Cain and Heyward aren't superstars. No one is voting them for an MVP. Should Kevin Kiermaier and Andrelton Simmons be considered superstars because of their defense? Should we have not considered Cabrera a superstar the last five years because his defense was utter crap? Being an MVP caliber position player in baseball is about what you do with the bat, period. And in that regard, Cain and Heyward are no where close to Donaldson or Harper.

Throwing 95 has nothing to do with Kuchel. He's an ace on a team with a ton of talent and capable of making the playoffs. The Nationals are basically the opposite. Imagine if Kuechel was where he is now but playing for the Astros three years ago. Only they had an extra hundred million in pay roll and an owner not willing to add more.

And if Heyward is really a superstar, awesome. Let's trade Harper for like four good players, sign Heyward to a 200 million dollar deal, and put the extra 200 million towards Strasburg and Rendon. Harper just gave us six good/very good players for the next five years.

Offline Mr Clean

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2364 on: November 01, 2015, 03:51:58 pm »

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2365 on: November 01, 2015, 03:53:36 pm »
I still want to know what team has the prospects to set us up for five to ten years and is willing to trade them all

Offline Slateman

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2366 on: November 01, 2015, 04:09:05 pm »
Bryce hates DC: https://instagram.com/p/9jmK82gIQg/
Looks more like he misses playing baseball and having fans cheer him. Doesn't say anything about DC ...

I still want to know what team has the prospects to set us up for five to ten years and is willing to trade them all
I think that's the bigger question. I don't think there is one.

Offline NJ Ave

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2367 on: November 01, 2015, 04:54:50 pm »
In the parlance of present value/future value, scouts have Slate's gibberish tool at 65/75.

Offline Vega

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2368 on: November 01, 2015, 05:37:36 pm »
I think that's the bigger question. I don't think there is one.
St. Louis and Houston. Doesn't matter though because Harper is not going anywhere.

Offline miller10

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2369 on: November 01, 2015, 05:42:00 pm »
I had 2 kids show up to the house dressed like Bryce Harper.  They were the only 2 kids dressed as pro sports athletes.  He has helped generate a young generation of Nats fans.  I am in a mix of Baltimore and Washington fans (slightly leaning towards b-more) so it's nice to see young Nats fans.


Offline UMDNats

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2370 on: November 01, 2015, 07:42:12 pm »
Slate actually makes some good points. Superstars just don't win. Barry Bonds never won, although he got close once in 02. A-Rod never won in Texas, and didn't win until he went to the Yankees where he had a great team around him.

Look at the Royals. They don't have any Harpers or Trouts. But they're a win away from a title.

With that said, you have to ask the question: does trading Harper INCREASE our chances of winning? Is there a team out there willing to give us, say, three B-B+ level players for Harper? If the answer to both of those is yes, then you have to at least consider it.



Derek Jeter never won!

Offline UMDNats

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2371 on: November 01, 2015, 07:43:11 pm »
I can't believe people want to trade a player who just put up the best season in baseball in over 10 years for  some B+ players because "superstars don't win championships."

Offline R-Zim#11

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2372 on: November 01, 2015, 07:46:26 pm »
Buster Posey, MVP who never won anything...oh wait a tick...

Offline UMDNats

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2373 on: November 01, 2015, 07:46:32 pm »
"We should trade Alex Ovechkin because superstars just don't win and he obviously hates DC," said insane Caps fans a few years ago. Basically trolls who felt like there was a team with 5-6 major-league ready players who were all good and could be traded to us.

Are you guys freaking serious?

Offline Slateman

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Re: The Bryce Harper Compendium (2015)
« Reply #2374 on: November 01, 2015, 08:06:58 pm »
Buster Posey, MVP who never won anything...oh wait a tick...
And what did he have around him?