Author Topic: The Garage  (Read 50774 times)

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Offline tomterp

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #225: December 28, 2015, 08:30:04 PM »
A Tesla for me Santa?  Sweet.

What a needledick.   :roll:

Offline MarquisDeSade

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #226: December 29, 2015, 07:02:35 AM »
Just decided against it since I won't be in the States when it would be delivered. Guess I'll just have to keep driving the X5 for a while.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #227: January 05, 2016, 11:21:21 AM »
not looking good for VW

Quote
Federal officials have been in talks with Volkswagen, discussing how the company plans to address the 600,000 or so affected vehicles on US roads. But, according to the press release for the civil suit, "recall discussions with the company have not produced an acceptable way forward. These discussions will continue in parallel with the federal court action."

http://www.cnet.com/news/mr-muller-goes-to-washington-us-sues-volkswagen/

looks like a fix wasn't as easy as they thought

Online GburgNatsFan

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #228: January 05, 2016, 12:10:36 PM »
Predictable. They couldn't make it work after years and years of R&D. Why would they be able to come up with a fix in a couple of months?

not looking good for VW

http://www.cnet.com/news/mr-muller-goes-to-washington-us-sues-volkswagen/

looks like a fix wasn't as easy as they thought

Offline whytev

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #229: January 05, 2016, 06:07:51 PM »
not looking good for VW

http://www.cnet.com/news/mr-muller-goes-to-washington-us-sues-volkswagen/

looks like a fix wasn't as easy as they thought

I'm kicking back and waiting for my class action suit to pay off.

Offline whytev

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #230: January 05, 2016, 06:09:49 PM »
Predictable. They couldn't make it work after years and years of R&D. Why would they be able to come up with a fix in a couple of months?

They can fix it in about two seconds if they are willing to sabotage the legendary fuel economy these machines offer. Right now I guarantee they are doing mad cost/benefit analysis about what is going to cost to placate all the customers who are gonna be paying twice as much for fuel.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #231: January 05, 2016, 06:24:09 PM »
They can fix it in about two seconds if they are willing to sabotage the legendary fuel economy these machines offer. Right now I guarantee they are doing mad cost/benefit analysis about what is going to cost to placate all the customers who are gonna be paying twice as much for fuel.

Maybe the government won't sign off on something that lessons fuel economy?

Offline mitlen

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #232: January 05, 2016, 06:28:25 PM »
Localities that are mandated to have emission standards should sue VW as well.

Online varoadking

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #233: January 05, 2016, 06:44:47 PM »
Localities that are mandated to have emission standards should sue VW as well.

What happens with folks driving a diesel VW or Audi that need to get recertified in those jurisdictions now?

Offline mitlen

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #234: January 05, 2016, 06:47:52 PM »
What happens with folks driving a diesel VW or Audi that need to get recertified in those jurisdictions now?

Haven't heard but they should be fined for driving an out of compliance vehicle.   Ignorance is no excuse.

 :couch:

Online GburgNatsFan

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #235: January 05, 2016, 06:55:49 PM »
What makes you think this? There are zero compliant cars on the road without a urea tank.  Adding that might not even be possible. Decreasing fuel economy by doing what, making the car run cooler? Leaning the crap out of it (which will decrease performance dramatically, but might not do anything about emissions).

How do you get the fuel and air to mix better so that the combustion is more complete and there is less NOx?

They can fix it in about two seconds if they are willing to sabotage the legendary fuel economy these machines offer. Right now I guarantee they are doing mad cost/benefit analysis about what is going to cost to placate all the customers who are gonna be paying twice as much for fuel.

Online varoadking

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #236: January 05, 2016, 07:27:52 PM »
Haven't heard but they should be fined for driving an out of compliance vehicle.   Ignorance is no excuse.

 :couch:

I support your position on this...  :thumbs:

Offline whytev

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #237: January 05, 2016, 07:31:49 PM »
What makes you think this? There are zero compliant cars on the road without a urea tank.  Adding that might not even be possible. Decreasing fuel economy by doing what, making the car run cooler? Leaning the crap out of it (which will decrease performance dramatically, but might not do anything about emissions).

How do you get the fuel and air to mix better so that the combustion is more complete and there is less NOx?

The fact that part of the scandal was that the computers were programmed to be compliant for the first couple hundred kilometres, then they stopped. That means it is possible if you throw performance and fuel economy out the window. It's only software that is standing in the way.

Online GburgNatsFan

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #238: January 05, 2016, 07:42:54 PM »
It is my understanding that the cars are compliant when being tested - and only when being tested.  Not during "the first couple of hundred kilometers." Do you have a citation? I can't find one.

The fact that part of the scandal was that the computers were programmed to be compliant for the first couple hundred kilometres, then they stopped. That means it is possible if you throw performance and fuel economy out the window. It's only software that is standing in the way.

Offline whytev

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #239: January 06, 2016, 04:08:57 AM »
It is my understanding that the cars are compliant when being tested - and only when being tested.  Not during "the first couple of hundred kilometers." Do you have a citation? I can't find one.

The wording I read implied that they work correctly when they are fresh off the lot, and kick into better performance after they have been driven enough that any testing has been done. Can't find it now, but this is consistent with my own experience (8.5 km./litre of fuel for the first couple weeks in the city, then suddenly a jump up to 13). Also, someone I do business with who was a VW dealer in her last job told me that they all noticed the diesels had brutal breaking in periods, and were always reassuring customers it would be okay after a week or two.

Even if you're right and it was about detecting the testing conditions, the cars still complied under those conditions, so my point stands about the issue being only programming.

Online varoadking

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #240: January 06, 2016, 10:02:11 AM »
The wording I read implied that they work correctly when they are fresh off the lot, and kick into better performance after they have been driven enough that any testing has been done. Can't find it now, but this is consistent with my own experience (8.5 km./litre of fuel for the first couple weeks in the city, then suddenly a jump up to 13). Also, someone I do business with who was a VW dealer in her last job told me that they all noticed the diesels had brutal breaking in periods, and were always reassuring customers it would be okay after a week or two.

Even if you're right and it was about detecting the testing conditions, the cars still complied under those conditions, so my point stands about the issue being only programming.

Here is what I took from all of this:  They complied under static (shop) conditions that are employed during traditional testing because the computer recognized the shop conditions and reprogrammed the system.  Under road conditions, they fail.  If you set the computer to perform as it does in static (shop) conditions in order to minimize emissions, it will not be roadworthy from either a performance or economy standpoint...perhaps to the point of failure.

I am guessing that is why it is not as easy as just reprogramming it.

Offline whytev

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #241: January 06, 2016, 11:45:53 AM »
Here is what I took from all of this:  They complied under static (shop) conditions that are employed during traditional testing because the computer recognized the shop conditions and reprogrammed the system.  Under road conditions, they fail.  If you set the computer to perform as it does in static (shop) conditions in order to minimize emissions, it will not be roadworthy from either a performance or economy standpoint...perhaps to the point of failure.

I am guessing that is why it is not as easy as just reprogramming it.

Exactly.  They could re-program my car tomorrow, but they have to figure out how to do that while not completely ruining my experience.  I'm expecting thousands.  Enough to pay for all the extra fuel at least.

Online varoadking

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #242: January 06, 2016, 12:00:01 PM »
Exactly.  They could re-program my car tomorrow, but they have to figure out how to do that while not completely ruining my experience.  I'm expecting thousands.  Enough to pay for all the extra fuel at least.

So...not easily done then?  Lean out an air/fuel mixture to accomplish this and you can expect catastrophic engine damage.  It doesn't take much. 

If you mean pay you to go away...I'd never take that deal...I'd want them to take the car back and refund my entire purchase price.  Mess with the air/fuel mixture and the car would become a time bomb...

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #243: January 06, 2016, 12:05:28 PM »
So...not easily done then?  Lean out an air/fuel mixture to accomplish this and you can expect catastrophic engine damage.  It doesn't take much. 

If you mean pay you to go away...I'd never take that deal...I'd want them to take the car back and refund my entire purchase price.  Mess with the air/fuel mixture and the car would become a time bomb...


their is some speculation that CARB and EPA want extended warranties on the emissions systems as part of a fix because it would be terrible for catalytic converters, but that VW is unwilling (because it would be really expensive)

Online varoadking

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #244: January 06, 2016, 12:06:59 PM »
their is some speculation that CARB and EPA want extended warranties on the emissions systems as part of a fix because it would be terrible for catalytic converters, but that VW is unwilling (because it would be really expensive)

VW really screwed the pooch with this one...

Offline mitlen

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #245: January 06, 2016, 12:07:19 PM »
Must be just me but I find it odd that owners wanna sue VW.     It's like a guy buying a 65" HD TV for $150 and bragging about what a good deal he got.    Then, he's shocked when he finds out it's stolen.      It appears that no other manufacturer could match VW's mileage numbers ..  not even Mercedes.    "Look at this.   I got a VW diesel that gets X% more gas mileage than anything Mercedes or anyone else can get.    Think they fudged the numbers?    Pshaw.   VW wouldn't lie but if they do, I'll feel violated and sue 'em."     Friends, you got screwed with your eyes wide open.       It's the rest of us who should sue.   Those of us who followed the rules and didn't cheat.    Those who had to pay to have their cars in compliance.  Those of us who are breathing worse quality air because of the collusion between VW and the people who drove these vehicles.    We're the ones who were violated and whose "experiences" and quality of life have been diminished.   :)

Online varoadking

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #246: January 06, 2016, 12:09:36 PM »
Must be just me but I find it odd that owners wanna sue VW.     It's like a guy buying a 65" HD TV for $150 and bragging about what a good deal he got.    Then, he's shocked when he finds out it's stolen.      It appears that no other manufacturer could match VW's mileage numbers ..  not even Mercedes.    "Look at this.   I got a VW diesel that gets X% more gas mileage than anything Mercedes or anyone else can get.    Think they fudged the numbers?    Pshaw.   VW wouldn't lie but if they do, I'll feel violated and sue 'em."     Friends, you got screwed with your eyes wide open.       It's the rest of us who should sue.   Those of us who followed the rules and didn't cheat.    Those who had to pay to have their cars in compliance.  Those of us who are breathing worse quality air because of the collusion between VW and the people who drove these vehicles.    We're the ones who were violated and who's "experiences" have been violated.    :)

Preach it, brother...I want reparations!

Offline mitlen

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #247: January 06, 2016, 12:10:23 PM »
Preach it, brother...I want reparations!

Amen      :rites:

Online GburgNatsFan

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #248: January 06, 2016, 02:52:46 PM »
The car would be completely un-driveable, with no acceleration, because they'd be starving it of fuel. Fuel mileage probably wouldn't suffer that much. And they'd still probably have to add a urea tank. No other compliant diesel exists without a urea tank. That might not be possible on a car engineered to not have one.

It's not only programming. I'm willing to make a one month avi wager that they will never be able to make these cars compliant (at current compliance standards).  I'll switch to an Expos logo if I'm wrong.

The wording I read implied that they work correctly when they are fresh off the lot, and kick into better performance after they have been driven enough that any testing has been done. Can't find it now, but this is consistent with my own experience (8.5 km./litre of fuel for the first couple weeks in the city, then suddenly a jump up to 13). Also, someone I do business with who was a VW dealer in her last job told me that they all noticed the diesels had brutal breaking in periods, and were always reassuring customers it would be okay after a week or two.

Even if you're right and it was about detecting the testing conditions, the cars still complied under those conditions, so my point stands about the issue being only programming.

Online GburgNatsFan

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Re: The Garage
« Reply #249: January 06, 2016, 02:55:22 PM »
The VW diesel does not get better mileage than the similarly sized Chevy Cruze.

I don't think that people got screwed eyes-wide-open. They were screwed with the full faith and backing of the EPA. Which hurts a lot, lot more.

Must be just me but I find it odd that owners wanna sue VW.     It's like a guy buying a 65" HD TV for $150 and bragging about what a good deal he got.    Then, he's shocked when he finds out it's stolen.      It appears that no other manufacturer could match VW's mileage numbers ..  not even Mercedes.    "Look at this.   I got a VW diesel that gets X% more gas mileage than anything Mercedes or anyone else can get.    Think they fudged the numbers?    Pshaw.   VW wouldn't lie but if they do, I'll feel violated and sue 'em."     Friends, you got screwed with your eyes wide open.       It's the rest of us who should sue.   Those of us who followed the rules and didn't cheat.    Those who had to pay to have their cars in compliance.  Those of us who are breathing worse quality air because of the collusion between VW and the people who drove these vehicles.    We're the ones who were violated and whose "experiences" and quality of life have been diminished.   :)