Author Topic: Unofficial Compromise DH Rule Testing Lab thread (Nats fans edition)  (Read 23944 times)

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Offline _sturt_

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Now, here's a very different kind of concept. Several of these ideas I'd support if any gained some traction, but at least right now, if I were Earth Czar, this is the one I'd personally go with, mainly because I'm a fan of close games, and it would seem to promote appreciably more of those...

Managers present a line-up card at the beginning of the game that places the DH and P in the line-up... so 1 through 10. However, one or the other is to be skipped in the line-up according to the applicable situation (below) at that point of the game...

At 0-0 or any other time when teams are tied in a game:

In the AL, the DH is used; in the NL, the DH is not used.

At any point that one team or the other takes the lead:

Team that is ahead, P bats; team that is behind, DH bats.

Of course, the precedent likely to keep this one from consideration is the idea that one team would be disadvantaged based on their having been successful by forging ahead... though, in fact, that very point is the attraction because it would make it just a little more difficult to get so far ahead that the other team couldn't catch up... bound to have more dramatic 9th innings.

Offline _sturt_

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General Premise of this Thread

All of the points made in the initial post of this thread remain valid.

Essentially, the thrust of the thread is that the "DH/No DH" discussions we tend to have are posited on a false dichotomy--i.e., we need a national conversation about all of the other options beyond the adoption of the pure DH or the total elimination of the DH, i.e., options that we might consider that do not require the other ~50% of baseball fans to completely capitulate to the preference of the other side.

And moreover, are posited on a false assumption that businesses ever make decisions that are in their own economic disinterest--and, baseball, of course, being a business. Business won't willingly antagonize 10%, let alone ~50% of their customer base.

In case anyone doubts that, the new commish recently just reaffirmed that reality when asked to comment. He stated that he's perfectly content with the status quo where the DH is concerned.

We'll continue with this stalemate unless/until the paying customers decide it's time to end the stalemate.

So, this now-40-year-old idea... that's f-o-r-t-y, not f-o-u-r... that someway somehow the other side is going to give up and give in seems a bit idealistic, if not moronic. Not only do you not have any clear movement toward one of the polarities, but you even have some fan bases whose team plays in one league, yet seemingly prefers the other game. I'm not only talking about HOU fans who largely remain pizzed that they've been forced into playing the AL game. I'm actually referring to a 2013 non-scientific online poll on the NESN (Red Sox' cable network) site that found about 60% of the ~2000 fans indicating a preference for the traditional game.

Taking a thumb to the wind, the only movement that seems to be gaining ground is that it is incoherent for a major league revenue-producing sport to impose on half of its teams one version of a rule, and a different version for the other half. There is an increasing recognition that we as fans wouldn't put up with it if, tomorrow, the NBA were to allow designated free throw shooters, let alone do so for half of the teams to the exclusion of the other half... nor if the NFL were to allow tackles to be pass-eligible, let alone do so for half of the teams to the exclusion of the other half.

So what to do?

As strongly polarized as the abortion issue is, it is instructive that, in spite of two sides being dug-in, the reality is that neither side has things exactly as they want them to be. There is, like it or not, compromise.

What to do? Compromise.

The basis of a more-satisfying compromise is identifying the key priorities that each side holds most salient, and focusing on addressing those.

General Premise of this Concept

This concept gives weight to the assertion that the drama of the overall game benefits when

(a) managers' strategic decisions--specifically as related to pitchers' place in the batting order--are re-introduced to the half of MLB that currently does not have that at all, and preserved in perpetuity to the applause of our half, "anti-DH," of baseball fan-dom; and,

(b) better hitters come to the plate in the midst of better run-scoring opportunities... and conversely, that the game is least affected when worse hitters come to the plate (i.e., when that isn't the case)... all of which addresses the contention of the other half, "pro-DH," of baseball fan-dom.

Sooooo... both sides finding just enough common ground. Pitchers still hit. But not always. Designated hitters still hit. But not always.

The Concept... in Two Simple Points

1. DH bats for the pitcher without consequence only when there are runners in scoring position (RISP).

2. However, if the DH bats for the pitcher when there are not RISP, it will cause someone to come out of the game: either the pitcher (likely), himself, or another position player who the DH replaces in the field. In either of the last two cases, the DH role also leaves the game. That is, the team may only retain the DH as-is if the current pitcher is removed.


Expected Outcomes
At-bat with no runners on base

- Pitchers very likely to bat in earlier innings, about as likely as now to bat in later innings since DH will ordinarily be used and relief pitchers taken down--however, notably, there is a consequence to the DH's at-bat in that case that doesn't exist in the pure-DH game

At-bat with runner on first

- Pitchers likely to be asked to sacrifice in earlier innings, whereas for relief pitchers the same situation exists for the DH decision as would with no runners on base

- Batter immediately before the P/DH slot will be asked to sacrifice routinely to get the runner on 1st to scoring position so that there is no consequence to batting the DH instead of the P

At-bat with runners in scoring position

- DH will always bat for the P in that situation

Overall

- Strategic element of the game preserved for NL fans, and for AL fans, greatly enhanced

- Offensive element of the game remains mostly intact for AL fans, and for NL fans, greatly enhanced

- The game is unified as it was in the beginning, and as it is and has been for every other revenue sport in the world... the Incoherency Era of Baseball comes to an end

Online varoadking

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My hair hurts from reading that...  :P

How about this premise:  "The DH was a colossal mistake, but the American League is currently stuck with it.  Either Keep the DH in the American League or get rid of the DH in the American league, and leave the National League alone."

:bow:

Offline _sturt_

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It's a given that there are those who are content with status quo.

To be content with status quo with this, one must also be content with the incoherence of playing one game by two different rules.

We wouldn't accept it in the NFL or the NBA. We've only accepted it in MLB because it started as an innocent experiment that supposedly would eventually either be made universal or would be set aside.

It's become, instead, the sports version of abortion... two highly-entrenced polarized sides.

If we figured out it's better to compromise where abortion is concerned, surely we can figure out a compromise here in something everyone would agree is not quite so important.

Online HalfSmokes

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are you also in favor of leveling the green monster, moving in the walls in Pepco, moving the walls out in cincinatti, cutting the ivy in wrigley and returning to the glory days of standard multi use stadiums because

To be content with status quo with this, one must also be content with the incoherence of playing one game by two different rules.

We wouldn't accept it in the NFL or the NBA.
and dimmensions and ground rules surely need to be standardized

Offline blue911

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Base runners should have to stop at each base,chug a beer then they could proceed. No beer = No advance.

Online varoadking

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are you also in favor of leveling the green monster, moving in the walls in Pepco, moving the walls out in cincinatti, cutting the ivy in wrigley and returning to the glory days of standard multi use stadiums because  and dimmensions and ground rules surely need to be standardized

Well put...but for the record, I would be in favor of demolishing Fenway in its entirety, and I despise the ivy in Wrigley Field, and Wrigley Field iteslf...or whatever they call it now.

I also believe the National League will move to the DH in my lifetime...perhaps sooner than later.


Online HalfSmokes

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The DH would probably be part of a new CBA and you're going to have NL owners howling about replacing a pinch hitter making the minimum with someone paid like a starter. A commissioner who pisses off large blocks of owners to 'improve' the game may have a very short tenure 

Offline Vega

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But not many teams have one guy that they use as a DH anymore. I'd say that only Oakland (Butler), Detroit (V-Mart), KC (Morales), and Boston (Papi) have true DHs on their rosters now. The other teams use it to give guys rest and achieve favorable matchups.

Online HalfSmokes

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But not many teams have one guy that they use as a DH anymore. I'd say that only Oakland (Butler), Detroit (V-Mart), KC (Morales), and Boston (Papi) have true DHs on their rosters now. The other teams use it to give guys rest and achieve favorable matchups.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/mlb/salaries/2014/player/dh/ you're still dealing with a bunch of guys making a lot more than the average NL bench hitter

Offline Vega

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http://www.usatoday.com/sports/mlb/salaries/2014/player/dh/ you're still dealing with a bunch of guys making a lot more than the average NL bench hitter
Are AL payrolls in general significantly higher than NL payrolls?

Online HalfSmokes

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No, but if all of the sudden you had to add another position (while still being locked into existing contracts), you'd have to expect payrolls to rise

Offline Vega

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No, but if all of the sudden you had to add another position (while still being locked into existing contracts), you'd have to expect payrolls to rise
I suppose. Still, I expect injuries to pitchers while hitting and the "chicks dig the long ball" mentality to lead to a universal DH within the next... five years, let's say.

Offline _sturt_

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are you also in favor of leveling the green monster, moving in the walls in Pepco, moving the walls out in cincinatti, cutting the ivy in wrigley and returning to the glory days of standard multi use stadiums because  and dimmensions and ground rules surely need to be standardized

Don't get all defensive on me... okay?... but give me some credit, I've only been having this discussion with probably 2-3 dozen different fans from different teams over the course of about 7 years or so...

If the argument is that baseball isn't standardized as it is, so why should the DH rule be standardized... here's what's missing with that, and it's pretty simple if you let yourself think about it...

Boston Red Sox as an organization are permitted to decide whether they want to have a Green Monster, and at what dimensions... as-is every team.

Thus... every team has the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE it's park dimensions as the other.

So, whereas all of the teams in MLB have that freedom to dictate their own park's dimensions... ie, the freedom to choose is common, ie standardized, for all... only half of the teams have the freedom to choose to utilize the DH in their line-ups... one half is restricted from it.

Therefore, the lack-of-standardized-stadiums thing falls flat as an objection.

Online HalfSmokes

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Don't get all defensive on me... okay?... but give me some credit, I've only been having this discussion with probably 2-3 dozen different fans from different teams over the course of about 7 years or so...

If the argument is that baseball isn't standardized as it is, so why should the DH rule be standardized... here's what's missing with that, and it's pretty simple if you let yourself think about it...

Boston Red Sox as an organization are permitted to decide whether they want to have a Green Monster, and at what dimensions... as-is every team.

Thus... every team has the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE it's park dimensions as the other.

So, whereas all of the teams in MLB have that freedom to dictate their own park's dimensions... ie, the freedom to choose is common, ie standardized, for all... only half of the teams have the freedom to choose to utilize the DH in their line-ups... one half is restricted from it.

Therefore, the lack-of-standardized-stadiums thing falls flat as an objection.

what does freedom to choose have to do with
It's a given that there are those who are content with status quo.

To be content with status quo with this, one must also be content with the incoherence of playing one game by two different rules.

We wouldn't accept it in the NFL or the NBA.


or are you saying fans would be content if Jerry Jones decided a 60 yard field was a good idea or James Dolan fancied seeing players shoot at a 19 foot basket?

Offline _sturt_

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The DH would probably be part of a new CBA and you're going to have NL owners howling about replacing a pinch hitter making the minimum with someone paid like a starter. A commissioner who pisses off large blocks of owners to 'improve' the game may have a very short tenure

This is more informed thinking than the stadium thing, but if you'll excuse me, it too falls flat.

First, what we agree on: Baseball is a business.

Therefore, none of this happens for as long as paying customers put up with it. It's just not in MLB's economic self-interest.

But here's the thing... if/when that were to occur, ie, that paying customers cease putting up with it... ( and as I've said, there's much more chatter these days about how incoherent the two-rules thing is than there was 5 years ago... ) then, at that point, it would, by definition, become in MLB's economic self-interest.

It wouldn't be driven by the commish... it would be driven by owners perceiving there is a negative economic consequence to keeping status quo.



Offline _sturt_

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But not many teams have one guy that they use as a DH anymore. I'd say that only Oakland (Butler), Detroit (V-Mart), KC (Morales), and Boston (Papi) have true DHs on their rosters now. The other teams use it to give guys rest and achieve favorable matchups.

True.

Offline _sturt_

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  • "Le Grande Orange"...Colt 45/Astro/Expo(Nat) Great
I suppose. Still, I expect injuries to pitchers while hitting and the "chicks dig the long ball" mentality to lead to a universal DH within the next... five years, let's say.



Essentially, the thrust of the thread is that the "DH/No DH" discussions we tend to have are posited on a false dichotomy--i.e., we need a national conversation about all of the other options beyond the adoption of the pure DH or the total elimination of the DH, i.e., options that we might consider that do not require the other ~50% of baseball fans to completely capitulate to the preference of the other side.

And moreover, are posited on a false assumption that businesses ever make decisions that are in their own economic disinterest--and, baseball, of course, being a business. Business won't willingly antagonize 10%, let alone ~50% of their customer base.


In case anyone doubts that, the new commish recently just reaffirmed that reality when asked to comment. He stated that he's perfectly content with the status quo where the DH is concerned.

We'll continue with this stalemate unless/until the paying customers decide it's time to end the stalemate.

Offline _sturt_

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  • "Le Grande Orange"...Colt 45/Astro/Expo(Nat) Great
what does freedom to choose have to do with

or are you saying fans would be content if Jerry Jones decided a 60 yard field was a good idea or James Dolan fancied seeing players shoot at a 19 foot basket?

What is your argument?

I may have misread or presumed too much.

Are you not contending (as others have) that because MLB doesn't have standardized stadium dimensions, it ALSO then isn't necessary for MLB to have standardized rules, such as the DH?

Correct me if I missed something... I didn't understand your purpose if that wasn't the point of your post.

Offline blue911

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This is more informed thinking than the stadium thing, but if you'll excuse me, it too falls flat.

First, what we agree on: Baseball is a business.

Therefore, none of this happens for as long as paying customers put up with it. It's just not in MLB's economic self-interest.

But here's the thing... if/when that were to occur, ie, that paying customers cease putting up with it... ( and as I've said, there's much more chatter these days about how incoherent the two-rules thing is than there was 5 years ago... ) then, at that point, it would, by definition, become in MLB's economic self-interest.

It wouldn't be driven by the commish... it would be driven by owners perceiving there is a negative economic consequence to keeping status quo.

 :hysterical:

You have the entire board telling you to piss off with DH crap. There's your groundswell amongst NL fans.

Offline Minty Fresh

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Base runners should have to stop at each base,chug a beer then they could proceed. No beer = No advance.

Absolutely this.

Offline Minty Fresh

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I say you take the DH thing even further. Play your best nine defensively and bat your best nine offensively - whether or not they field a position or not.  Put your roster together using all of your strengths you can. 


Online HalfSmokes

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just because you assume a premise necessarily leads to a conclusion doesn't make it so
Thus... every team has the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE it's park dimensions as the other.

does not necessarily lead to

Quote


Therefore, the lack-of-standardized-stadiums thing falls flat as an objection.

you can say it does all you want, and that's fine, but it simply doesn't.

 

First, what we agree on: Baseball is a business.

Therefore, none of this happens for as long as paying customers put up with it. It's just not in MLB's economic self-interest.
... it would be driven by owners perceiving there is a negative economic consequence to keeping status quo.


then what is the catalyst, as you say,
It's a given that there are those who are content with status quo.

To be content with status quo with this, one must also be content with the incoherence of playing one game by two different rules.

We wouldn't accept it in the NFL or the NBA. We've only accepted it in MLB because it started as an innocent experiment that supposedly would eventually either be made universal or would be set aside

the status quo has been fine for over 40 years and AL fans seem content to keep it and NL fans seem content without it- so what exactly would be the impetus for change? You seem to dismiss everyone who is fine with the situation without answering a question that seems to be at the base of any argument for change

also

Don't get all defensive on me...


makes you seem like a condescending prick

Online HalfSmokes

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What is your argument?

I may have misread or presumed too much.

Are you not contending (as others have) that because MLB doesn't have standardized stadium dimensions, it ALSO then isn't necessary for MLB to have standardized rules, such as the DH?

Correct me if I missed something... I didn't understand your purpose if that wasn't the point of your post.

you're the one saying that fans accept different rules if 'every team has the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE,' I'm just pointing out that it's a patently absurd statement

Offline _sturt_

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:hysterical:

You have the entire board telling you to piss off with DH crap. There's your groundswell amongst NL fans.

I understand the rationale, but for the same reason I answered my mom that I wouldn't jump over the proverbial cliff, I don't really pay much attention to popularity as a reason to hold a position or not.

Intelligent adults form their own opinions based on the merits of an argument, not on the basis of who lands the best put-down or who is agreeing/disagreeing. Hopefully we can agree on that much(?).

To the most fundamental point of your post...

I think we can agree that the question has always been... or nearly always, anyhow... set-up as-if it is binary... that there are only two possible answers.

Notably, it's not that people have considered modifications, but chose to reject that path. Rather, it's that they haven't even had the notion that there could be a compromise rule, let alone what a compromise rule might look like. Now, having said that, that's changing. Over the last 2-3 seasons, I've begun to see movement on that, sometimes even from national columnists.

In political circles, it's not unusual these days to hear someone say, "We need to have a 'national conversation' about... [insert issue here]."

I submit that we need to have a national conversation, not merely about the DH issue, but precisely about the pros/cons of making the DH decision a binary one versus opening it up to compromise options.