Author Topic: Curly W Trademark Infringement?  (Read 13091 times)

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Offline RL04

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Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Topic Start: June 09, 2012, 08:40:59 PM »
Apologies if this was brought up before a long time ago when the team and or forum were started.
I was driving home yesterday from work and a Walgreens truck passed me on the Roosevelt Bridge.
And I noticed something interesting ... a very familiar looking letter of the alphabet . . .

Here is the Walgreens logo  (and ours):





Does anyone know - did the team get permission from Walgreens? 
Did Walgreens ever sue?
Etc.



Online RobDibblesGhost

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #2: June 09, 2012, 08:48:43 PM »
I think Walgreens and Wegmans were dealing with this issue a while back (both have similar curly W logos), but I haven't heard anything about legal action involving the Nats.

Online HalfSmokes

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #3: June 09, 2012, 08:52:18 PM »
Why would Walgreens bother? Companies pay a lot of money to be associated with teams, they get it for free. Also pussing off a city of fans by getting a team to change it's logos seems like more of a pain than just slapping the Walgreens w on tshirts and hats and selling those (I know I'd buy a bastardized 'Nats' hat with a wallgreen w)

Offline zimm_da_kid

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #4: June 09, 2012, 09:02:40 PM »
the senators used that logo long before wegmans or walgreens did.

Offline CALSGR8

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #5: June 09, 2012, 09:31:53 PM »
If you look at the little swing of the top of the W.  They are slightly different. 

Walgreens kind of hangs horizontal. 
Senators/Nats kind of curls down and around.

There is also Wilson High School hats but I think they got permission because I remember seeing them at Baseball in DC rallys.  Will post as soon as I can find an image


Offline BH34Natural

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #6: June 09, 2012, 10:12:36 PM »
My college's baseball team uses the same curly W on their alternate uni's and caps

Online welch

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #7: June 09, 2012, 10:27:53 PM »
The expansions Senators adopted the curly-W about 1965, a red W on a blue cap with red seams. Bob Short turned the team colors to all-red in 1969, and the new Nats use almost a duplicate hat. If Walgreens didn't object in 1965, they will have a hard time objecting now.


Offline Obed_Marsh

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #8: June 10, 2012, 09:30:32 AM »
Given you cannot trademark letters or typeface designs it is pretty damn unlikely.

Online PowerBoater69

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #9: June 10, 2012, 09:42:45 AM »
Given you cannot trademark letters or typeface designs it is pretty damn unlikely.

Really?  So Nats fans can make and sell their own shirts and other such items displaying the Curly W with no worries about copyright infringement?  Interesting.

Offline Obed_Marsh

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #10: June 10, 2012, 10:05:13 AM »
Really?  So Nats fans can make and sell their own shirts and other such items displaying the Curly W with no worries about copyright infringement?  Interesting.

I'd imagine so if the design didn't include an element they could copyright or trademark although I don't claim to be an expert.

A little more explanation is here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Logo_Copyright/Trademark/Typeface

If you want detail, I'd suggest picking up the associated book from Nolo.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/patent-copyright-trademark

Offline Dixon Ward

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #11: June 10, 2012, 10:21:17 AM »
copyright and trademark are two different things. i don't think you can copyright a letter or typeface but you can certainly trademark the association between it and a service or product. huffington post trademarked the letter H with a line underneath it. given that walgreens and the nationals are in entirely different industries, there probably isn't a trademark claim on the W. however, walgreens would  have a claim if another retailer/grocer/drug store tried to use a similar W, and that's what seems to have happened with wegmans. similarly, the nationals would have a claim if another baseball team tried to use a curly W as their logo.

fans can't print curly W baseball merchandise because it misleads the public as to the origin and quality of the product. people will assume it's from the nationals franchise, and that's a trademark infringement.

i'm not a lawyer, but that's my understanding of the legal issues.

Quote
Ronald B. Brockmeyer publishes a magazine called O. The title is a reference, he said in a telephone interview from Essen, Germany, to ''The Story of O,'' a classic of sadomasochistic picturesography. ''My magazine is a fashion-oriented magazine with an erotic touch,'' he said, in enthusiastic but imperfect English. ''We are very much into leather, high heels, whatsoever.''

He said he distributes about 15,000 copies of the magazine in the United States and owns the American trademark for the letter O for, among other things, fashion magazines and various forms of adult entertainment.

Mr. Brockmeyer said he was excited about the lawsuit he has just filed against the publishers of Oprah Winfrey's wildly successful self-help and lifestyle magazine, which is also called O. The suit alleges that Ms. Winfrey's magazine infringed the German publication's trademark, competed with it unfairly and harmed its reputation.

Quote
Trademark law generally guards only the association between a name or symbol and a given product. Its goal is to protect consumers from authentic confusion about the origin of the product.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/02/weekinreview/ideas-trends-earning-their-letters-legally-alphabet-isn-t-simple-b-c.html

Offline raveoned

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #12: June 10, 2012, 04:24:09 PM »
IIRC, Walgreens was using the curly W from the 1950's or so.

Offline Count Walewski

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #13: June 10, 2012, 04:26:30 PM »
They're as different as the Alabama "A" and the Atlanta Braves "A".

Offline CALSGR8

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #14: June 10, 2012, 04:31:22 PM »
They're as different as the Alabama "A" and the Atlanta Braves "A".

Which I get confused often.

Offline Count Walewski

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #15: June 10, 2012, 04:34:21 PM »
Which I get confused often.

Remember: Alabama "A" has a hat on it, and Alabama had a coach famous for wearing hats.

Of course, every single player on the Atlanta Braves wears a hat.

Offline captkirk42

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #16: June 10, 2012, 05:27:39 PM »
I saw that Wallgreen's argument a few years ago. They are similar looking but different enough I don't think there is an issue. Wallgreen's has had that W logo from the 50s? And yes technically the Nats/Senators Curly W is younger coming in at 1963 but as I said I think they are different enough not to worry.

Now when you start talking about all the New York teams with the NY logos they have. Those are what confuse me sometimes. The Mets logo is simliar to what the Giants used to be when they were a NY team, and then there is the Red Sox and Brooklyn Dodgers "B"similarities.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #17: June 10, 2012, 05:40:31 PM »
Apologies if this was brought up before a long time ago when the team and or forum were started.
I was driving home yesterday from work and a Walgreens truck passed me on the Roosevelt Bridge.
And I noticed something interesting ... a very familiar looking letter of the alphabet . . .

Here is the Walgreens logo  (and ours):





Does anyone know - did the team get permission from Walgreens? 
Did Walgreens ever sue?
Etc.



Check Wegmans too.

Offline CALSGR8

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #18: June 10, 2012, 06:40:36 PM »
Remember: Alabama "A" has a hat on it, and Alabama had a coach famous for wearing hats.



Bear Bryant?

Offline tomterp

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #19: June 10, 2012, 09:21:02 PM »
Bear Bryant?

Ah, the former Terrapin coach.

Offline Coladar

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #20: February 24, 2014, 08:55:04 PM »
I guess I get to bump this up...

I had heard of this issue before, but it was more a sentence about "Their logos are really similar." Walgreens is apparently doing a serious advertising push these past few weeks. The first time I saw one of the ads, maybe two weeks ago, I was convinced it was a Nats ad at first - I saw a flash of a curly red W as I was hitting my 30-second skip, did a double take and hit rewind.

So... this has been an issue for a while, clearly. Obed said you can't copyright typeface, etc. That may well be true, but it's not just using a certain font in a logo for a store that has a name that begins with W. It's using that font *and* using that coloration *and* using just the W as a pseudo-symbol. Anybody can use whatever font they want to, sure, but when you use that font and the *exact*!!! same color scheme - white on red - problem. Curly W and red on green, yellow on blue, black on gray - a plethora of combinations. Non-curly W with red/white... well, even that would be potentially confusing. I'd argue it's less the typeface, and more the color scheme plus a standalone W utilized as a symbol.

Of all the color schemes in the world, out of 26 letters in the alphabet, and the rarity of using a curly/cursive style font, I do not see how both parties could continue on if either ever raised an objection in court. I did a fast Google, came up with this page: http://logos.wikia.com/wiki/Walgreens

According to that, it looks as though they only evolved to the stand-alone curly red W logo in 2006. Yes, Walgreens used a curly typeface with red text for their branding for decades, but it was, apparently, always as 'Walgreens'. If true, point goes to the Nats, born in '05.

What these recent ads have brought to my attention unlike before is that Walgreens is taking it a step above and beyond - they are now using just a red curly W as their logo. They dropped the 'algreens', having just the solitary curly W prominant on all advertising and signage apart from 'Walgreens'. Their signs, their ads, everywhere, it appears as though they are rebranding themselves to be synonymous with and identified by just a red curly W. That? That's *really* a problem.

I'm no trademark lawyer, although I just might have played one on TV once, but I see a red on white curly W used the way both parties use it as more of an image or extraordinarily distinctive symbol. Again, not versed in this field of law, but I would imagine a critical test judges would use is the likelihood confusion can arise by their appearance and utilization - is it unique enough, distinctive enough, for an average person to see it and immediately associate it with the company/team?

I don't see how the Nats can let this go, at least now that Walgreens is unleashing an advertising blitz in our area that they hadn't done before. It seems to me either Walgreens is expanding their reach into the DC area lately, or their ad agency has recently decided to dramatically emphasize the stand-alone curly red W as their logo/brand. Bottom dollar, I'd heard murmurs of this issue in the past, but never actually saw anything like their recent ads where I literally believed it was something from the Nats. So unless I simply was oblivious to all this and this isn't something new/expanded, it seems like Walgreens decided to push its luck of late.

Offline Galah

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #21: February 24, 2014, 10:38:18 PM »
What is the basis for the lawsuit?

What damage do the Nationals, a baseball team, incur by being confused with a drugstore and/or hows is a drugstore likely to be damaged by being confused with a baseball team.

Similar argument to - why would a record label ever be confused with a computer manufacturer?





Offline CALSGR8

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #22: February 24, 2014, 11:49:25 PM »
One has a curl that curls under.  The other is nearly straight.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #23: February 25, 2014, 12:05:17 AM »
OK, maybe I'm smoking too much pink insulation these days, but I *swear* there was a Clippard bobblehead. 

Offline Copecwby20

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Re: Curly W Trademark Infringement?
« Reply #24: February 25, 2014, 12:52:50 AM »
Remember: Alabama "A" has a hat on it, and Alabama had a coach famous for wearing hats.

Of course, every single player on the Atlanta Braves wears a hat.

That thing that kicks off of the Alabama "A" is a mullet.... in case anyone was curious.