2011/12 off-season

[Slateman]

I have to imagine the Buerhle camp would let the Nats have an opportunity to up their offer.

That was option #1, that Rizzo had no clue of the market, probably the worse option than him trying to put on a facade for the fanbase.

For one, no one saw the Marlins doing this. Thy were overbidding for everyone.

Second, unless the Nationals were willing to top the Marlins by a lot, he wasn't coming here. He likes Ozzie. He's said that would be an incentive to go there. The fact that the Marlins were willing to overpay only sweetened the deal. Is be willing to bet that he didn't go back to any team after the Marlins' offer.

Buehrle was over paid and didn't really want to be here. Wilson signed for less to go to LA. And we were never in the running for Pujols. I fail to see any real issue with the offseason thus far. The only thing that Rizzo has failed to do is get the CFer that he has wanted for a while, but no one is dealing.

[hammondsnats]

Buehrle was over paid and didn't really want to be here. Wilson signed for less to go to LA.

hahahahaha you know this because ... obviously we made his final three, but the offer was one year and $19 million less than the marlins offer. 

sorry but that was an awful post, imo.

[Slateman]

Because if he had really wanted to be here, he would have taken less money. Or would have come back and said, give me a 4th year at that rate.

He's 32 and wants a pay day. Marlins have been offering the most.

[KingHarper]

well can we atleast give RZ an extension??

[cmdterps44]

Because if he had really wanted to be here, he would have taken less money. Or would have come back and said, give me a 4th year at that rate.

He's 32 and wants a pay day. Marlins have been offering the most.

I can't find it but I believe I heard that Buerhle DID have interest in the Nationals, he just wanted them to add a fourth year.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Backing out when 3/ $39MM was not acceptable was sensible.  Buehrle would have been nice but not necessary for this team.  Quite a few people here think the best reason to sign Buehrle would have been to make Lannan expendable.  Lannan is OK for the role of change of pace LHP between SS and JZ.  Not as good, but not a disaster.  I know Lannan would not have been the key to a deal for Upton or Bourjos, and I'm pretty sure he is not going to be the key to a deal for Span, either.

Blue says Buehrle is a low break down risk.  I can accept that he might be lower than most guys his age given the low, low stress he puts on his arm.  Maybe he's Boomer Wells without the gut.  I still hate going longer than 3 years for a pitcher in his 30s.  The Marlins had better hope he continues to give up contact that finds fielders.  For me, if I'm spending $15MM a year for 4 years, I want Ks, I want a lot of them, and I don't want just 2 or 3 Ks per 9 more than the walks my pitcher is allowing. 

He and Lannan are more similar than I thought over the past 4 seasons. Here are some graphs comparing the two. Lannan allows more BBs and has a higher WHIP but gives up fewer homers.  I'm OK with Lannan serving the innings eating lefty whose ERA is better than his peripherals role for a while.  I might even think Lannan is more likely to do what he's done the past 4 years for the next two or 3 than Buehrle is given their age and stage of their careers. 

And I'm not big John Lannan fan, either.

[DPMOmaha]

Because if he had really wanted to be here, he would have taken less money. Or would have come back and said, give me a 4th year at that rate.

He's 32 and wants a pay day. Marlins have been offering the most.

Psh, no.  I think he really wanted to be wherever the best opportunity was.  And that ended up being in Miami.  If we had the exact same offer on the table as the Marlins then it might have been different, but even if he prefered Nats Park or other things about the Nats over Miami, if they're going to offer an extra year and 15 mil, that changes your desires fairly quickly.  Still wondering if Rizzo got a chance to match the 4th year...

[Slateman]

well can we atleast give RZ an extension??

This x1000

Needs to get done.

I can't find it but I believe I heard that Buerhle DID have interest in the Nationals, he just wanted them to add a fourth year

Tell you what, find a legit source that says Buehrle wanted to come to Washington for less money than the Marlins offered if the Nats had offered a fourth year, and i'll start to believe this Rizzo didn't offer fair market value stuff.

[Slateman]

Could the way we rehabbed Chein Ming Wang give us any leverage at all when it.comes to negotiating for.Darvish? I know he's Tawainese, but.Wang was well known throughout the Asian baseball world.

[PowerBoater69]

For one, no one saw the Marlins doing this. Thy were overbidding for everyone.

It is Rizzo's JOB to know these things.

Second, unless the Nationals were willing to top the Marlins by a lot, he wasn't coming here.

So why did we even bid?  Why did Rizzo name the guy as his top choice?  Why did he appear to be surprised when notified that we lost out?  Why are we now on to some unknown Plan B which appears to mean signing nobody. 

We don't need Rizzo going on tilt and signing guys just to appease the fan base.  But getting knocked off track at the first road block and going into a shell isn't much better.

[cmdterps44]

Tell you what, find a legit source that says Buehrle wanted to come to Washington for less money than the Marlins offered if the Nats had offered a fourth year, and i'll start to believe this Rizzo didn't offer fair market value stuff.

Nah, not worth my time.

[DPMOmaha]

Could the way we rehabbed Chein Ming Wang give us any leverage at all when it.comes to negotiating for.Darvish? I know he's Tawainese, but.Wang was well known throughout the Asian baseball world.

I don't know about leverage, but it could certainly give us some credibility.  Nats got a lot of Asian exposure when he started pitching again, so that should work in our favor, but I don't think it's something that we can hold over him.

[cmdterps44]

Nah, not worth my time.

Alright first source:

The Nationals’ final offer to Mark Buehrle was not close
By Adam Kilgore


The Miami Marlins held a news conference yesterday afternoon to introduce Mark Buehrle after he officially signed his four-year, $58 million deal. The Nationals had put a press on to sign Buehrle, but at the end their offer fell far short of the big money the Marlins gave Buehrle.

According to a person with knowledge of the situation, the Nationals’ best offer to Buehrle was $39 million over three years – $19 million less than the Marlins paid in overall guaranteed money and $1.5 million less in average annual value. Buehrle felt Washington was a good fit for him and his family, but the Marlins convinced him to head instead to a divisional rival.

“I appreciate everything [Mike Rizzo] and the Nationals had to offer,” Buehrle said during an interview on MLB Network. “It just came down to comfort level.”

The Nationals made Buehrle their top free agent target this winter, even visiting him at his home in St. Louis to make their pitch. But Rizzo said he did not feel comfortable extending a fourth year to Buehrle, a 32-year-old with spotless injury history.

“That was an issue from the start,” Rizzo said. “We tried to work through that. But once he became comfortable with the fit in Miami, the term was right for him.”

With Buehrle in Miami, the Nationals will move on to “Plan B,” Rizzo said. The Nationals will pursue right-handed free agent Roy Oswalt. They have kicked the tires on a trade with the Oakland A’s for Gio Gonzalez, but after the A’s traded starter Trevor Cahill to the Diamondbacks, they seem likely to hold on to Gonzalez.

The Nationals could also enter the bidding for Yu Darvish, who was posted Thursday by his Japanese team, the Nippon Ham Fighters. The Nationals have until Wednesday at 5 p.m. to enter a bid to Nippon to win the right to negotiate with Darvish, a 25-year-old superstar who last season compiled a 1.44 ERA and led Japan’s highest professional league with 276 strikeouts.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nationals-journal/post/the-nationals-final-offer-to-mark-buehrle-was-not-close/2011/12/10/gIQAVPJjkO_blog.html

While it doesn't say it straight forward, to me it says that Buerhle liked what Washington had but wanted a fourth year and Rizzo didn't want to give him it.

[PowerBoater69]

Tell you what, find a legit source...

Well that's an easy challenge to make, with the rumors flying at the meetings, GMs hiding their true intentions, agents indicating interest from mystery teams, and media members falling over themselves to float the latest chatter, there are no legit sources on anything other than the actual signings that occurred.

[hammondsnats]

19 million short strawman!  19 million! 

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Could the way we rehabbed Chein Ming Wang give us any leverage at all when it.comes to negotiating for.Darvish? I know he's Tawainese, but.Wang was well known throughout the Asian baseball world.

Unlikely.  first, of course, we have to win the right to negotiate with him.  That is straight bidding so how we handled Wang will not matter on that score.  If we did win negotiating rights, then I suppose it would be a minor factor, but way behind team stature and Japan-specific connections. 

[Lintyfresh85]

Exactly what JCA said. This is a straight money deal. Reputation means nothing when it comes to the blind bid. Maybe it'd save a bit for the contract if we won the bid... But the bid itself goes to the highest team. Darvish doesn't get a choice to pick the bidder he wants.

[Slateman]

Alright first source:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/nationals-journal/post/the-nationals-final-offer-to-mark-buehrle-was-not-close/2011/12/10/gIQAVPJjkO_blog.html

While it doesn't say it straight forward, to me it says that Buerhle liked what Washington had but wanted a fourth year and Rizzo didn't want to give him it.

Sounds like he liked Miami as muh as he liked DC. In other words, it was about money. Fourth year and money and all that fourth year was a guaranteed paycheck.

Rizzo made the right call. We have a ton of guys who.should be in the rotation shotgun three years. Buehrle would be getting 15 million to perform Tom Gorzelanny's role. Thanks, but no thanks.

[Lintyfresh85]

With each post you lower Buehrle's worth. Next you're going to say he's no better than D-Cab was.

[spidernat]

Which leads to the questions of why Rizzo even mentioned his interest in Buehrle or for that matter bothered to make a low ball offer that was destined to be rejected.  Was Rizzo's judgment of the market so far off that he actually thought he was making a competitive bid or was he just putting on a show for the fan base?  I don't know which is worse.

Business as usual.

[cmdterps44]

Sounds like he liked Miami as muh as he liked DC. In other words, it was about money. Fourth year and money and all that fourth year was a guaranteed paycheck.

Yeah well no crap. A lot of free agents interests are money. I was just posting that he did have interest in DC and that a fourth year could've peaked his interests but like many of others have said in this thread, Rizzo didn't even offer a close amount to a fair, competitive offer.

Like I've said earlier, my main issue with the failing of Buerhle is that he was our "top target" in the free agency and with that failure, I don't have much hope for the FO to fill in our other needs like a CF/lead off hitter or another pitcher whether its through FA or trade.

Edit: Hopefully by Monday we'll see if at least Upton is non-tendered so we can sign him. I at least want a CF and I would think he'd be a nice addition to our lineup:

Desmond (unless he miraculously plays at his second half level) / Lombo
Werth
Zimmerman
Morse
LaRoche
Upton
Espinosa
Ramos
Pitcher

[Lintyfresh85]

The problem I see with the Nats in FA is they treat it like the draft... As if they're the only team bidding on a player... So they try to strong arm them into taking a bad deal.

[UMDNats]

Backing out when 3/ $39MM was not acceptable was sensible.  Buehrle would have been nice but not necessary for this team.  Quite a few people here think the best reason to sign Buehrle would have been to make Lannan expendable.  Lannan is OK for the role of change of pace LHP between SS and JZ.  Not as good, but not a disaster.  I know Lannan would not have been the key to a deal for Upton or Bourjos, and I'm pretty sure he is not going to be the key to a deal for Span, either.

Blue says Buehrle is a low break down risk.  I can accept that he might be lower than most guys his age given the low, low stress he puts on his arm.  Maybe he's Boomer Wells without the gut.  I still hate going longer than 3 years for a pitcher in his 30s.  The Marlins had better hope he continues to give up contact that finds fielders.  For me, if I'm spending $15MM a year for 4 years, I want Ks, I want a lot of them, and I don't want just 2 or 3 Ks per 9 more than the walks my pitcher is allowing. 

He and Lannan are more similar than I thought over the past 4 seasons. Here are some graphs comparing the two. Lannan allows more BBs and has a higher WHIP but gives up fewer homers.  I'm OK with Lannan serving the innings eating lefty whose ERA is better than his peripherals role for a while.  I might even think Lannan is more likely to do what he's done the past 4 years for the next two or 3 than Buehrle is given their age and stage of their careers. 

And I'm not big John Lannan fan, either.

Perfectly said.

[Slateman]

I think.Rizzo should be embarrassed that Buehrle was his.number 1 free agency target in the first place. Seriously? Not Wilson? Not Pujols? Not Fielder?

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Well that's an easy challenge to make, with the rumors flying at the meetings, GMs hiding their true intentions, agents indicating interest from mystery teams, and media members falling over themselves to float the latest chatter, there are no legit sources on anything other than the actual signings that occurred.

Always the favorite caveat of the 'shiners.  "All you have are rumors" - as if one is going to find a bevy of highly reputable, accurate information regarding the negotiations that take place in the MLB.