What's the difference between "athletes" and "tools"?

[NatsDad14]

I can't figure out how "athletic" Outfielders isn't anything other than code for "tools." Help me out and tell me where I'm wrong.

[Evolution33]

I can't figure out how "athletic" Outfielders isn't anything other than code for "tools." Help me out and tell me where I'm wrong.

What I think the difference is is that athletic is code for defensive minded while a toolsy outfielder is a guy with potential in a secondary skill. Look at the guys Rizzo likes compared to the Bowden guys. Nyjer Morgan is athletic because he plays good defense and has shown ability in the past to be good on the bases. The comparable Bowden guy to him would be Nook Logan who somehow had even less baseball sense than Nyjer and was just an unpolished speed guy. Looking at Bernadina he is kind of a jack of all trades with the bat. I think he will top out around 15 homer power, steal a moderate amount of bases, and get on base at a below average clip, but he will do all this while playing above average defense in left field. I would compare him to Wily Mo who was pure unpolished power. He couldn't make contact to save his life and was a beached whale in the outfield.

[Natskins]

I'd say Jayson Werth is an "athlete," whereas Jim Bowden is a "tool."

[Lintyfresh85]

I can't figure out how "athletic" Outfielders isn't anything other than code for "tools." Help me out and tell me where I'm wrong.

I've wondered the same thing lately.

[blue911]

I guess it depends on how you define athletic. Being able to hit, throw and field a baseball aren't reserved to the athletically gifted. Running may be the only tool that all would agree is an athletic trait.

[Lintyfresh85]

I guess if I was being serious about it... 'toolsy' implies a prospect that has a high ceiling, but a long way to go to reach those physical gifts.... where as, 'athletic' means a guy can do a multitude of things, i.e. running the bases, playing defense etc. etc.

[PANatsFan]

Eagleskins is a tool.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I guess it depends on how you define athletic. Being able to hit, throw and field a baseball aren't reserved to the athletically gifted. Running may be the only tool that all would agree is an athletic trait.

The five tools are hitting for average, hitting for power, baserunning / speed, throwing, and fielding.  Athletic would be more general, I would think.  Physical strength and agility would be athletic skills that were not necessarily tools but useful in evaluating a player or a prospect.  Some baseball skills like strike zone judgment and ability to read a ball off a bat might not be either tools or athletic skills. 

I guess when people refer to Werth's athleticism they are referring to his speed, physical strength, conditioning, and the naturalness of his movement, while when they say he is a 5 tool player, they are referring to his hitting for average and power, run bases, strong arm, and ability to get to balls hit in his area.

[Minty Fresh]

Eagleskins is a tool.

Win.

[Baseball is Life]

You are not wrong. It's the same thing really. Obviously, a player who is toolsy is probably very athletic and vice versa (usually.)

We should rename this thread to "Baseball Semantics to Discuss During the Offseason.."

Damn, we need Rizzs to sign a 1B or SP.

[Tyler Durden]

I think Rizzo wants guys with proven baseball skills that are also athletic.  Not just guys who can run really fast and and throw really far.

He doesn't want guys that are just athletic.  I'm somewhat doubtful, for example, the Destin Hood will be given much of a shot here. 

[Nick the Pig]

I think Rizzo wants guys with proven baseball skills that are also athletic.  Not just guys who can run really fast and and throw really far.

That's my take as well, although sometimes I think "athletic" is a code word for "good defense" for Rizzo.

The old school five tools (or at least 4 or them) that translate into baseball skills.  And no obvious glaring weaknesses.

[NeedaNewNick]

I can't figure out how "athletic" Outfielders isn't anything other than code for "tools." Help me out and tell me where I'm wrong.

Athletic is Carl Crawford making a diving catch.  "Tools" are what Phil Wood uses on his head to transform his receding hairline into that Frankenstein look.

[HalfSmokes]

That's my take as well, although sometimes I think "athletic" is a code word for "good defense" for Rizzo.

that doesn't explain Morgan unless fast equals good center fielder

[Nick the Pig]

that doesn't explain Morgan unless fast equals good center fielder

You're right, it doesn't.

Morgan has basically one tool - speed.  He used it to great effect last year in the field, running down fly balls that many other CF's wouldn't have got to, and catching them.  in 2009, at least.

In 2010, he was still running them down, but finding a way to avoid actually catching the ball.  So his speed didn't translate to a baseball skill.

Same goes for stealing bases.  The guy is fast, no doubt about it.  Yet he gets caught stealing about 1/3rd of the time.

[HalfSmokes]

That's my problem with the fixation on 'fast' or 'athletic' guys. I don't care how fast an outfielder is, if they take a bad line they suck (see Milledge, Lastings), and it seems like we have a knack for slotting those guys into our  lineup at CF.

[houston-nat]

Secretly, I'm hoping Bryce Harper becomes a CF and turns into Mickey Mantle.

[blue911]

Secretly, I'm hoping Bryce Harper becomes a CF and turns into Mickey Mantle.

Drunk with somebody else's liver?

[JCA-CrystalCity]

That's my problem with the fixation on 'fast' or 'athletic' guys. I don't care how fast an outfielder is, if they take a bad line they suck (see Milledge, Lastings), and it seems like we have a knack for slotting those guys into our  lineup at CF.

Milledge hasn't been Lasting anywhere for more than a year or two.

[blue911]

Milledge hasn't been Lasting anywhere for more than a year or two.

He didn't last too long after Rizzo was named acting GM. Demoted after a week of the regular season.

[Baseball is Life]

Secretly, I'm hoping Bryce Harper becomes a CF....

This would be intriquing but I don't know anybody who has projected him to be anything but a corner OF. Does he have the speed?

[Lintyfresh85]

This would be intriquing but I don't know anybody who has projected him to be anything but a corner OF. Does he have the speed?

Not from what I've heard... and some scouts are worried he'll grow to be the size of Dunn.

[Baseball is Life]

Not from what I've heard... and some scouts are worried he'll grow to be the size of Dunn.

Yeah, corner outfield until 30, and then it's to 1B. But I think some people are sort of projecting him to be like Josh Hamilton. This is my read on it so take it FWIW.

[Evolution33]

Yeah, corner outfield until 30, and then it's to 1B. But I think some people are sort of projecting him to be like Josh Hamilton. This is my read on it so take it FWIW.

I have heard his top three comps are Hamilton, Drew, and Walker. I don't know if he has the speed to play center, but he was rated the most athletic outfielder in the Nationals system, and some scouts feel his baseball IQ might be one of his best skills. When you get right down to it centerfield is more about reading the ball off the bat and taking good routes. Simple intelligence can make up a lot for speed. Just look at a guy like Jim Edmonds.

[blue911]

I have heard his top three comps are Hamilton, Drew, and Walker. I don't know if he has the speed to play center, but he was rated the most athletic outfielder in the Nationals system, and some scouts feel his baseball IQ might be one of his best skills. When you get right down to it centerfield is more about reading the ball off the bat and taking good routes. Simple intelligence can make up a lot for speed. Just look at a guy like Jim Edmonds.

Freddie Lynn for us older guys.