Fire Rizzo

[JCA-CrystalCity]

The fact that he is 100% immune to any and all criticism is incredible. The day a Washington Post writer/columnist even mentions that he may have messed up will be the first.

In fairness, Boz has been pretty persistent with saying the bullpen needed more big arms for practically the entire offseason until now.  He pushed Kimbrel hard.

[HalfSmokes]

The fact that he is 100% immune to any and all criticism is incredible. The day a Washington Post writer/columnist even mentions that he may have messed up will be the first.

He built this team with no depth, not to mention the revolving door of managers. I don't blame him for Dusty getting let go, but hiring Martinez essentially immediately seems to be an enormous mistake.

As payroll goes up, the mental gymnastics required to blame the owners gets more amusing at least

[imref]

As payroll goes up, the mental gymnastics required to blame the owners gets more amusing at least

Well, we never really know who is making the decisions.  It was reported that Rizzo didn't want Scherzer and wanted to trade Harper last year.  The Corbin signing, coupled with being over the cap in the past, tied our hands this year too.  It's tough to know if that's Rizzo's fault, Marc Lerner's fault, or some combination.

[Natsinpwc]

Well, we never really know who is making the decisions.  It was reported that Rizzo didn't want Scherzer and wanted to trade Harper last year.  The Corbin signing, coupled with being over the cap in the past, tied our hands this year too.  It's tough to know if that's Rizzo's fault, Marc Lerner's fault, or some combination.

Don’t forget being cheap on the managers.

[HalfSmokes]

Well, we never really know who is making the decisions.  It was reported that Rizzo didn't want Scherzer and wanted to trade Harper last year.  The Corbin signing, coupled with being over the cap in the past, tied our hands this year too.  It's tough to know if that's Rizzo's fault, Marc Lerner's fault, or some combination.

You mean like when the saddled Rizzo with Scherzer? Are people blaming Corbin for drafting and bullpen arms? The assumption seems to be Rizzo needs to sign the big names to succeed (if only the lerners would let him sign Kimberly) and not having the budget to do it is on the owners

[imref]

Don’t forget being cheap on the managers.

Right.  Didn't Rizzo want Bud Black in 2016?

[Slateman]

At what point is it fair to place the blame on the guy assembling the team?

It's always fair.

I think there are valid criticisms of Rizzo at this point. First and foremost is the ability to evaluate and develop pitching. We've always had problems in the bullpen. Rizzo made a great trade for Gio Gonazalez, but there have also been some serious mistakes. Rafeal Soriano, Jonathan Papelbon, Dan Harren, Anibal Sanchez, and Jeremy Hellickson (this season). We've already gotten a post on the bullpen, but I think that seeing how Treinen, Vasquez, AJ Cole, Trevor Gott, Craig Stammen, Yuemero Petit, and Shawn Kelley have gone on to have success speaks to a possible issue that needs to be addressed.

[UMDNats]

You mean like when the saddled Rizzo with Scherzer? Are people blaming Corbin for drafting and bullpen arms? The assumption seems to be Rizzo needs to sign the big names to succeed (if only the lerners would let him sign Kimberly) and not having the budget to do it is on the owners

"I can't win because the owners made me sign a Cy Young pitcher to what looks like one of the best FA signings in the league the last 5-10 years!"

[Jeff in Gaithersburg]

Well, we never really know who is making the decisions.  It was reported that Rizzo didn't want Scherzer and wanted to trade Harper last year.  The Corbin signing, coupled with being over the cap in the past, tied our hands this year too.  It's tough to know if that's Rizzo's fault, Marc Lerner's fault, or some combination.

The Corbin signing was a no-brainer, best power lefty on the market and they paid the market rate. Think back to the playoff years and how nice it would have been to have a pitcher like Corbin as the #3 starter in those series when Gio had to pitch a crucial or decisive game and crapped the bed.

[Jeff in Gaithersburg]

It's always fair.

I think there are valid criticisms of Rizzo at this point. First and foremost is the ability to evaluate and develop pitching. We've always had problems in the bullpen. Rizzo made a great trade for Gio Gonazalez, but there have also been some serious mistakes. Rafeal Soriano, Jonathan Papelbon, Dan Harren, Anibal Sanchez, and Jeremy Hellickson (this season). We've already gotten a post on the bullpen, but I think that seeing how Treinen, Vasquez, AJ Cole, Trevor Gott, Craig Stammen, Yuemero Petit, and Shawn Kelley have gone on to have success speaks to a possible issue that needs to be addressed.

Between 2014-16 the pen was ranked 2nd, 6th and 2nd in the NL. The main issue was finding a consistent closer before the Doolittle trade but the middle relief had been very solid between 2012-16. Since 2017 it's declined sharply but finding good relievers who are consistent year in and year out is largely a crap shoot. Part of it is also that there hasn't been a manager here in years who actually knew how to properly handle the pen.

[aspenbubba]

It's always fair.

I think there are valid criticisms of Rizzo at this point. First and foremost is the ability to evaluate and develop pitching. We've always had problems in the bullpen. Rizzo made a great trade for Gio Gonazalez, but there have also been some serious mistakes. Rafeal Soriano, Jonathan Papelbon, Dan Harren, Anibal Sanchez, and Jeremy Hellickson (this season). We've already gotten a post on the bullpen, but I think that seeing how Treinen, Vasquez, AJ Cole, Trevor Gott, Craig Stammen, Yuemero Petit, and Shawn Kelley have gone on to have success speaks to a possible issue that needs to be addressed.

I don't think A J Cole is playing this year

[Slateman]

Between 2014-16 the pen was ranked 2nd, 6th and 2nd in the NL. The main issue was finding a consistent closer before the Doolittle trade but the middle relief had been very solid between 2012-16. Since 2017 it's declined sharply but finding good relievers who are consistent year in and year out is largely a crap shoot. Part of it is also that there hasn't been a manager here in years who actually knew how to properly handle the pen.

2014 we had Drew Storen and Rafael Soriano
2015 we had Storen and had to trade for Papelbon
2016 - Traded for Melancon and gave away Felipe

Sorry, pen has always been an issue under Rizzo.

[Natsinpwc]

2014 we had Drew Storen and Rafael Soriano
2015 we had Storen and had to trade for Papelbon
2016 - Traded for Melancon and gave away Felipe

Sorry, pen has always been an issue under Rizzo.

So the stats cited are meaningless when they don’t fit your narrative?

[HalfSmokes]

any pen with Storen as the closer is inherently flawed

[Slateman]

So the stats cited are meaningless when they don’t fit your narrative?

Rizzo had to fix the pen on two occasions, mid-season. In the process he gave away at least one all star reliever.

[Natsinpwc]

Rizzo had to fix the pen on two occasions, mid-season. In the process he gave away at least one all star reliever.

So?  You didn’t like the results?

[Slateman]

any pen with Storen as the closer is inherently flawed

This. It was obvious after 2012. It's why they signed Soriano. And traded for Papelbon.

[mdnatsfan]

Did Rizzo crapcan Dusty, or was it Lerner?

[Duke of Earl]

Right.  Didn't Rizzo want Bud Black in 2016?

Not only did he want him, they had an agreement in place. A tentative agreement, and the Lerners backed out.  They wanted to pay him $1M, for one year, and Black said freak You.   We'd be doing fine with Black.  After the Black fiasco there were few choices left, and that's why we're stuck with Martinez. 

[Duke of Earl]

Did Rizzo crapcan Dusty, or was it Lerner?

The Lerners insisted that he be let go.  Rizzo wanted to keep him.

[Natsinpwc]

This. It was obvious after 2012. It's why they signed Soriano. And traded for Papelbon.

They have a good closer now. And yet bottom of the league as a total bullpen. Seems like there is more than just a closer.

[HalfSmokes]

Not only did he want him, they had an agreement in place. A tentative agreement, and the Lerners backed out.  They wanted to pay him $1M, for one year, and Black said freak You.   We'd be doing fine with Black.  After the Black fiasco there were few choices left, and that's why we're stuck with Martinez. 

I thought the narrative was that Dusty was the greatest manager ever- if Black came, dusty never would have

[Duke of Earl]

I thought the narrative was that Dusty was the greatest manager ever- if Black came, dusty never would have

Second greatest.  Black was the greatest.

Seriously though, I don't know which of the two was better, but I think the point is, if we had hired Black, there's a reasonably good chance that he'd still be here, we wouldn't have gotten stuck with Martinez, and we'd be much better off.

[UMDNats]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/blame-dave-martinez-for-the-nats-struggles-mike-rizzo-would-rather-you-blame-him/2019/05/03/286a872c-6d52-11e9-a66d-a82d3f3d96d5_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d995b8680abc

“The performance goes to the players, and the players are on the roster because I put them there,” Rizzo said. “Every important decision that’s made for the Washington Nationals, I’m responsible for. I can live with that. That’s the way things have to be. When all this venom about, ‘He can’t handle the bullpen,’ some bullpens are harder to handle than others. When a bullpen’s struggling, it’s difficult to find the right move to make.”

The decision to fire Lilliquist was substantive, not window-dressing. In some corners of the Nationals’ operation, it was surprising he was brought back for 2019 at all. He was, in the eyes of two insiders, not a particularly hard worker — which, in good times, could be seen as simply being a player’s coach, but as the staff’s stats regressed, seemed lazy.

[HalfSmokes]

Second greatest.  Black was the greatest.

Seriously though, I don't know which of the two was better, but I think the point is, if we had hired Black, there's a reasonably good chance that he'd still be here, we wouldn't have gotten stuck with Martinez, and we'd be much better off.

If we hired black, there’s a reasonable chance he would have been scapegoated when the team flamed out in the playoffs because nothing can ever be Rizzo’s fault