Nationals new 1B discussion

[MarquisDeSade]

Werth + LaRoche only slightly better than Dunn + Wilingham.

Just remember, Werth is ON the Nationals this season and not hitting against them.  He's also not going to play 81 in the bandbox known as Citizens Bank Park, though he will play 81 in Citizens Bank Park South. 

[hammondsnats]

I wouldn't put those things in the same category.  LaRoche might be a suitable stop-gap, but getting him doesn't exactly indicate that the team is going in the "right direction" or anything.

Agreed.

Werth + LaRoche only slightly better than Dunn + Wilingham.

well obviously i'd rather have werth, dunn and willingham as opposed to just werth and laroche.  look all i said is i agreed with that one line, the nats need to spend money and win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lintyfresh85]

Anyone want to do an avatar bet that Dunn + Willingham have a better year than Werth + LaRoche (provided he signs?)

I'll take the Dunn + Hammer portion.

[JMW IV]

Anyone want to do an avatar bet that Dunn + Willingham have a better year than Werth + LaRoche (provided he signs?)

I'll take the Dunn + Hammer portion.

no, but I'll bet you that the 2011 Nats with Werth/Laroche will win more games than the 2010 Nats with Dunn/Willingham.

provided Laroche signs, of course.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

no, but I'll bet you that the 2011 Nats with Werth/Laroche will win more games than the 2010 Nats with Dunn/Willingham.

provided Laroche signs, of course.

I might take that.

It's contingent upon the pitching staff.

[PatsNats28]

Anyone want to do an avatar bet that Dunn + Willingham have a better year than Werth + LaRoche (provided he signs?)

I'll take the Dunn + Hammer portion.

Sure, why not. I'll probably lose, but that's fine. How are we defining this - WAR?

[hammondsnats]

I might take that.

It's contingent upon the pitching staff.

this ... it all depends on how the pitching does this year.

i think livo and lannan will be themselves, if marquis can be the guy he was in colorado first half and if zimmermann can be consistent ... i'll be thrilled.

[Lintyfresh85]

Sure, why not. I'll probably lose, but that's fine. How are we defining this - WAR?

I was thinking something like this.

Point for combined AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS, R, HR, RBI, SB, WAR

So, that's nine categories... the group with the most category wins, wins.

Thoughts?

[KnorrForYourMoney]

I didn't mean that, exactly.

I meant it's contingent upon whether they make changes to the pitching staff between now and O.D.

If the pitching staff stays the same, I think we could be looking at a disaster.

[JMW IV]

What Rizzo wants to do with the team will lead to winning, I am sure of it.

I am skeptical though, if the type of players he would require are readily available to him.

[PANatsFan]

Offensively it's about the same.  Defensively it's not even close.  I would much rather have Werth and LaRoche.

Healthwise, LaRoche >> Hammer.

[Tyler Durden]

I'll go on record and say that I have no idea if LaRoche/Werth will be better than Hammer/Dunn (we need to come up with nicknames, btw).

It is interesting, though, and really illustrative of the type of players Rizzo wants in here with the more all around skills of LaRoche and Werth. 

Again, I don't know if it will work out, but there at least seems to be a philosophy behind building the team.  That's way better than what we had before.

Now that being said, just sign LaRoche already.

[RD]

Offensively it's about the same.  Defensively it's not even close.  I would much rather have Werth and LaRoche.

Thank you for being the sane one here.

Werth and LaRoche are FAR superior to Dunn and Willingham.

Offensively, the 'new' duo pretty much beats the 'old' duo offensively, aside from home runs, where they only had 2 less bombs. So they are slightly better offensively. If you want to argue ... Fine, you can call both even offensively.

On defense, its no contest. We go from a poor defender in Dunn, to a good defender in LaRoche. We go from an average defender in Willingham, to a great defender in Werth.

The new guys easily are a better combination than what we had last year.

But of course, that doesn't matter to the negative people around here. They'll continue to nag about something.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

I'll go on record and say that I have no idea if LaRoche/Werth will be better than Hammer/Dunn (we need to come up with nicknames, btw).

Same here.

Ideally, I would have liked Werth and Dunn, but what's done is done.

Btw, does anyone think I'm crazy for this idea?:

I think it could have been an interesting move to send Zimmerman to the Reds for Votto or Alonso (possibly Alonso + a prospect), and then sign Beltre.

I could never see it happening, but it's one of those "I would do it on MLB The Show" type of moves.

[Coladar]

Thank you for being the sane one here.

Werth and LaRoche are FAR superior to Dunn and Willingham.

Offensively, the 'new' duo pretty much beats the 'old' duo offensively, aside from home runs, where they only had 2 less bombs. So they are slightly better offensively. If you want to argue ... Fine, you can call both even offensively.

On defense, its no contest. We go from a poor defender in Dunn, to a good defender in LaRoche. We go from an average defender in Willingham, to a great defender in Werth.

The new guys easily are a better combination than what we had last year.

But of course, that doesn't matter to the negative people around here. They'll continue to nag about something.

First of all, we don't have LaRoche yet, although I can't imagine theres anyway we don't have him come ST. But the main point is, at what cost. You're arguing they are the same offensively. Defense at first base is a laugher as far as Dunn realistically costing us games. willingham in LF is an even bigger laugher. Talks are LaRoche getting $9mil a season. Plus Werth getting gobs of money. Compared with Dunn and Willingham. Dunn being far more offensively proven than Werth. We are spending how much more money to get basically the same offensive production? And likewise, I'm not sold on Werth being a proven offensive commodity at this point. But the key is the money.

[Obed_Marsh]

I think you folks are setting yourself up for a fall regarding LaRoche. Rizzo hasn't proven himself to be particularly adept at signing free agents when other teams are in the mix.

[Tyler Durden]

I think you folks are setting yourself up for a fall. Rizzo hasn't proven himself to be particularly adept at signing free agents when other teams are in the mix.

He signed Jayson Werth.  That was a pretty big get, no?  If you're going to hammer him for his failings, at least give credit where it's due.

[Lintyfresh85]

FAR superior? Really?

Take a look at Werth's Home/Away splits.

Take out the fact that Werth is a career .296/.385/.559/.944 hitter against the Nats.

Then take a look at what group put up the better offensive WAR in 2010, here's a hint, it's not Werth + LaRoche

(Dunn - 30.2 + 20.7 - Willingham) = 50.9
(Werth - 39 + 5.4 - LaRoche) = 44.4

Hmm, sure is a FAR superior upgrade on offense, isn't?

Oh lets not forget that Hammer was hurt much of the second half of last year... so that number should be even more inflated... but who needs facts?

[Tyler Durden]

First of all, we don't have LaRoche yet, although I can't imagine theres anyway we don't have him come ST. But the main point is, at what cost. You're arguing they are the same offensively. Defense at first base is a laugher as far as Dunn realistically costing us games. willingham in LF is an even bigger laugher. Talks are LaRoche getting $9mil a season. Plus Werth getting gobs of money. Compared with Dunn and Willingham. Dunn being far more offensively proven than Werth. We are spending how much more money to get basically the same offensive production? And likewise, I'm not sold on Werth being a proven offensive commodity at this point. But the key is the money.

After all the bellyaching about cheapness (don't know if it was from you in particular or not, but it was there from some elements on this board), the Nats go out and spend money on the types of players they want, and now there is complaining about paying too much?

[Obed_Marsh]

He signed Jayson Werth.  That was a pretty big get, no?

Only via a massive overpay. While I am pleased as a fan; hardly a gold star for the GM considering the contract terms.

[Lintyfresh85]

To this point, the Nats haven't spent any money yet.

In fact, they've managed to lower their payroll from last year.

[PatsNats28]

I was thinking something like this.

Point for combined AVG, OBP, SLG, OPS, R, HR, RBI, SB, WAR

So, that's nine categories... the group with the most category wins, wins.

Thoughts?

WAR incorporates all of that though... how about wOBA instead of AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS...

[Lintyfresh85]

WAR incorporates all of that though... how about wOBA instead of AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS...

How do you add wOBA... unless you want to go with 'Batting' runs as your measure... in which case, Dunn + Hammer > Werth + LaRoche in 2010.

[PatsNats28]

FAR superior? Really?

Take a look at Werth's Home/Away splits.

Take out the fact that Werth is a career .296/.385/.559/.944 hitter against the Nats.

Then take a look at what group put up the better offensive WAR in 2010, here's a hint, it's not Werth + LaRoche

(Dunn - 30.2 + 20.7 - Willingham) = 50.9
(Werth - 39 + 5.4 - LaRoche) = 44.4

Hmm, sure is a FAR superior upgrade on offense, isn't?

Oh lets not forget that Hammer was hurt much of the second half of last year... so that number should be even more inflated... but who needs facts?

Wait are those career numbers? Because they don't look right to me. Unless that's wRAA or something (which doesn't seem right either).

[Lintyfresh85]

Wait are those career numbers? Because they don't look right to me. Unless that's wRAA or something (which doesn't seem right either).

'Batting' which is wOBA put into run form, is what I have listed for their 2010 totals.


Dunn -
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=319&position=OF#value

Willingham -
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=2103&position=OF#value

Werth -
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1327&position=OF#value

LaRoche -
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1904&position=1B#value