DC as a baseball town

[tomterp]

Baltimore by themselves drew over 3.6 MM 4 times in the 90s, and drew over 3.4 MM every full season at OPACY through 1999.  In 2004, they drew 1 MM more than this year. Angelos was 100% right about the effect of bringing a team to the DC area would have on the team up the parkway.  The relocation into DC made it so Baltimore could not compete financially in the AL East.  Not that I have shred of sympathy for him, but it cannot be seriously disputed that the Nats hurt the Os in terms of attendance.

The Orioles drew better in 2005, the best year of Nats attendance, than they did in 2003.  The Orioles don't draw because their core product is lousy, and for some, looking at nice buildings isn't enough.

[HalfSmokes]

The Orioles drew better in 2005, the best year of Nats attendance, than they did in 2003.  The Orioles don't draw because their core product is lousy, and for some, looking at nice buildings isn't enough.

not to mention Baltimore's not exactly undergoing a renaissance

[PANatsFan]

not to mention Baltimore's not exactly undergoing a renaissance

Look, if smelly bums are any indication, the smelly bum industry in Baltimore is taking off like crazy.

[NatsTheFats]

Didn't he mean the NL west crown.... Not the AL west crown.....?  I don't recall an American League Atlanta Braves....

[JCA-CrystalCity]

The Orioles drew better in 2005, the best year of Nats attendance, than they did in 2003.  The Orioles don't draw because their core product is lousy, and for some, looking at nice buildings isn't enough.

From 2004 - 2005, we switched from 81 games at OPACY to 81 games at RFK plus 13 at OPACY.  On top of that, bars here would run 4 - 5 bus trips up to OPACY for popular games. In 2008, we dropped the Os tickets, and in 2010 we cut back to 41 Nats games.  The bar now runs 1 trip a year up to OPACY.

[RL04]

DC as a baseball town.

Win and they will come.

See Capitals as reference.

[RL04]

The issues with DC as a baseball town are not about attendance. it is about the Redskins.

Sorry, don't follow.

What exactly is the point?

[shoeshineboy]

Sorry, don't follow.

What exactly is the point?

For decades among the MLB brass, the reluctance to putting baseball in DC was rooted in the perception that DC was a one-team town. Most cities have a tendency to see the support for various sports teams - in terms of attendance, merchandise purchase, and general public interest - rise and fall with the success of the respective teams. DC is really no different in that regard. So the rap on the city regarding not being a good baseball town or a good basketball town or a good hockey town or any other kind of sport town, is rather arbitrary in many ways. If the teams win, they "get the attendance they deserve" as Kasten puts it. It isn't really different than other places. It's just that other than the Bullets of the late 70s and the Caps' recent rise, the other teams in DC haven't been very good. In fact, they have mostly universally sucked.

The Skins, being the only game in town for so long, have multiple generations of fans built up, win or lose. And with the NFL being an easy thing to market and sell, the Skins reign supreme. Consequently, the perception of DC as a sports town over the last 20 to 30 years has been less based on whether or not it would support a baseball team and more about whether it would support any team other than the Redskins. Obviously, the answer is that if the team is a quality product it will get support - that has been demonstrated across all the other sports. But despite that being the general case for any city, DC's local-media-stoked obsession with Redskins coverage had MLB folks wondering for years whether any other sport could really crack that market; so there was resistance. It took some high-powered lobbying, a vision of a revitalized riverfront, and a sweetheart deal that had the rest of the owners seeing big dollar signs they wouldn't be getting anywhere else for the resale of a gutted club to make them consider finally putting a team here.

So the questions about DC as a baseball town are not really about whether or not it can attract a following. DC has plenty of hometown and long and short-time transplanted baseball fans to draw from. And this horrible joke of a team often draws more people and has as much, if not more, neighborhood buzz than several other teams around the league. It's really about whether baseball would be stuck playing a very distant second fiddle to the Redskins machine or be able to crack the market the way it does in other cities. Due to the Redskins stranglehold on the local media, it takes some work to counter that. It can be done, but it takes some initiative that a lazy ownership and poor communications staff may not be able to deliver.

[RL04]

For decades among the MLB brass, the reluctance to putting baseball in DC was rooted in the perception that DC was a one-team town. ... {Most quoted text removed just to save space.}  ...  Due to the Redskins stranglehold on the local media, it takes some work to counter that. It can be done, but it takes some initiative that a lazy ownership and poor communications staff may not be able to deliver.

Thanks.
Yeah, I agree with just about everything you say - though some aspects seem a little to conflict with the premise.

I would add that there was also another MLB perception about DC (in regard to why the two previous teams left).  It's a touchy subject of course so I'd rather not go into it. 

Besides the local NFL football team, the media also seem to be obsessed with Maryland and Georgetown basketball which I (and many other Virginia residents) couldn't possibly care less about and drives me crazy.

And I still stand with my previous comment, if the Nats win, people will come.

[Gleason2]

I agree that success on the field will drive people into the seats.  There is no question in my mind about that.  I'm curious, however, about what the touchy subject is that you referenced with regard to an alternative MLB perception about DC vis-a-vis the departure of Senators I and Senators II.  Would you mind elaborating?  I really am not sure what you're referring to.

Thanks.
Yeah, I agree with just about everything you say - though some aspects seem a little to conflict with the premise.

I would add that there was also another MLB perception about DC (in regard to why the two previous teams left).  It's a touchy subject of course so I'd rather not go into it. 

Besides the local NFL football team, the media also seem to be obsessed with Maryland and Georgetown basketball which I (and many other Virginia residents) couldn't possibly care less about and drives me crazy.

And I still stand with my previous comment, if the Nats win, people will come.

[RL04]

I'm curious, however, about what the touchy subject is that you referenced with regard to an alternative MLB perception about DC vis-a-vis the departure of Senators I and Senators II.  Would you mind elaborating?  I really am not sure what you're referring to.

It was believed that the demographic population shift and the ensuing social unrest in Washington starting in the 1960s would not be a conducive atmosphere in which to economically support an ongoing Major League baseball endeavor based in the District.

[HalfSmokes]

It was believed that the demographic population shift and the ensuing social unrest in Washington starting in the 1960s would not be a conducive atmosphere in which to economically support an ongoing Major League baseball endeavor based in the District.

It still doesn't explain why NOVA or Montgomery county couldn't be the 'DC' team. Especially around that time, teams weren't necessarily in the city bearing their names, but nearby suburbs.

[soxfan59]

It still doesn't explain why NOVA or Montgomery county couldn't be the 'DC' team. Especially around that time, teams weren't necessarily in the city bearing their names, but nearby suburbs.

This was one of Griffith's major excuses for moving Senators I.  I don't think it was valid -- but the concept that African Americans either were too poor or were disinterested in MLB.  Of course, Griffith also wanted to go to LA, but the Dodgers beat him to it (interesting story having to do with Griffith being afraid to fly, so he went by train, while O'Malley criss crossed the country twice over in the meantime). 

The "NFL has a stranglehold on the market" argument fails because at least since the mid-70s, this has been true in almost every market where the NFL shares the market with MLB.  If you looked at Chicago, the Bears are certainly the number one draw in pro sports, hands down.  But yet, the support for the Cubs, the White Sox, the Blackhawks, and the Bulls is there, even when those teams are having poor years. 

[JCA-CrystalCity]

It is strange to go around Potomac Yards and the Carlyle /  Patents Office / Whole Foods area near old town and wonder what some of those areas would be like had the Skins or the baseball built there. I know Wilder wanted to put a stadium in Potomac Yards but was shot down.  That was after there were development plans.  You wonder why no one picked up on the beltway access and the planned metro to put something out around Eisenhower Ave.

[HalfSmokes]

It is strange to go around Potomac Yards and the Carlyle /  Patents Office / Whole Foods area near old town and wonder what some of those areas would be like had the Skins or the baseball built there. I know Wilder wanted to put a stadium in Potomac Yards but was shot down.  That was after there were development plans.  You wonder why no one picked up on the beltway access and the planned metro to put something out around Eisenhower Ave.

I would never underestimate the NIMBY reaction of old town even though Eisenhower isn't really there, they would flip over the extra rt 1/gw traffic

[Ali the Baseball Cat]

Granted, the area around Griffith Stadium was pretty much gutted during the '68 riots...this obviously didn't directly affect RFK, but there was probably a pretty big perception problem covering all of downtown DC for a while after that.   

It was believed that the demographic population shift and the ensuing social unrest in Washington starting in the 1960s would not be a conducive atmosphere in which to economically support an ongoing Major League baseball endeavor based in the District.

[JCA-CrystalCity]

I would never underestimate the NIMBY reaction of old town even though Eisenhower isn't really there, they would flip over the extra rt 1/gw traffic

Could not do it now, but was there talk about it back in the 70s?  Actually, I'm guessing in the 70s  RFK was still state of the art.

[Gleason2]

Isn't that the same spot where Jack Kent Cooke wanted to build the new Redskins stadium before settling on Raljon?

It is strange to go around Potomac Yards and the Carlyle /  Patents Office / Whole Foods area near old town and wonder what some of those areas would be like had the Skins or the baseball built there. I know Wilder wanted to put a stadium in Potomac Yards but was shot down.  That was after there were development plans.  You wonder why no one picked up on the beltway access and the planned metro to put something out around Eisenhower Ave.

[comish4lif]

Yeah, Jack Kent Cooke wanted to put the Redskins in Potomac Yards. But the locals didn't want 10 Sundays of traffic. So, now they have it 365 days a year with the Best Buy, Target, Shoppers, the movie theater...

[JCA-CrystalCity]

Yeah, Jack Kent Cooke wanted to put the Redskins in Potomac Yards. But the locals didn't want 10 Sundays of traffic. So, now they have it 365 days a year with the Best Buy, Target, Shoppers, the movie theater...

No kidding.  You more or less cannot drive route 1 on Saturday or South in the evening rush.

[Galah]

No kidding.  You more or less cannot drive route 1 on Saturday or South in the evening rush.

That can be said for numerous parts of the city

[tomterp]

Yeah, Jack Kent Cooke wanted to put the Redskins in Potomac Yards. But the locals didn't want 10 Sundays of traffic. So, now they have it 365 days a year with the Best Buy, Target, Shoppers, the movie theater...

This is totally correct.  I lived in Alexandria for 19 years - 9 in nearby Rosemont, and while I loved living there, I think there was a small group of people who would oppose anything just to show off their activism creds.  Another example, there was a group opposed to the Wilson Bridge rebuild project.  They had a big photoshop image (maybe 10 feet wide by 4 feet high) hung on a fence during the Rosemont 4th of July festival, showing what the bridge would look like when completed.  Man was that bridge wide!  So wide, that I counted the lanes, and there were 15 in all - that for a planned 12 lane bridge.     I called them out on it, I think they were a bit taken aback by anyone not agreeing with them.  At the time, traffic was backing up into Old Town from the Rt. 1 / 495 ramps each evening, and causing gridlock in Old Town (and a knock-on effect elsewhere) for hours each workday.  Relief was sorely needed, a benefit to Alexandria residents over the existing status quo.

It was too late to fight the battles of the 1950's over the location of the Wilson, but they were doing their best.   

[Galah]

This is totally correct.  I lived in Alexandria for 19 years - 9 in nearby Rosemont, and while I loved living there, I think there was a small group of people who would oppose anything just to show off their activism creds.  Another example, there was a group opposed to the Wilson Bridge rebuild project.  They had a big photoshop image (maybe 10 feet wide by 4 feet high) hung on a fence during the Rosemont 4th of July festival, showing what the bridge would look like when completed.  Man was that bridge wide!  So wide, that I counted the lanes, and there were 15 in all - that for a planned 12 lane bridge.     I called them out on it, I think they were a bit taken aback by anyone not agreeing with them.  At the time, traffic was backing up into Old Town from the Rt. 1 / 495 ramps each evening, and causing gridlock in Old Town (and a knock-on effect elsewhere) for hours each workday.  Relief was sorely needed, a benefit to Alexandria residents over the existing status quo.
It was too late to fight the battles of the 1950's over the location of the Wilson, but they were doing their best.   

Same people who fought the third lane for I 66 I'm guessing....here's hoping that breed dies off with all their children having moved to Manassas and no longer able to visit mom and dad because traffic stinks.

[MarquisDeSade]

I feel sorry for people that have to deal with 66 on a daily basis.

[tomterp]

Same people who fought the third lane for I 66 I'm guessing....here's hoping that breed dies off with all their children having moved to Manassas and no longer able to visit mom and dad because traffic stinks.

Right.  Once you've decided to built it at all, don't build it half-assed.