Author Topic: That Effin Balk  (Read 6293 times)

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Offline Senators2005

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That Effin Balk
« Topic Start: July 15, 2005, 11:11:21 PM »
I saw Stanton turn to first base for the throw...what's the deal?  Balks are so confusing sometimes.  But to end a crucial game like that was just lame.   :evil:

Offline Senators2005

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #1: July 15, 2005, 11:14:03 PM »
Here's the official rulebook:

8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when_ (a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery; If a left-handed or right-handed pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick off play. (b) The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base and fails to complete the throw; (c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base; Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk. A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion "wheels" and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk. (d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play; (e) The pitcher makes an illegal pitch; A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter's box. With runners on base the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball. The quick pitch is dangerous and should not be permitted. (f) The pitcher delivers the ball to the batter while he is not facing the batter; (g) The pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch while he is not touching the pitcher's plate; (h) The pitcher unnecessarily delays the game; (i) The pitcher, without having the ball, stands on or astride the pitcher's plate or while off the plate, he feints a pitch; (j) The pitcher, after coming to a legal pitching position, removes one hand from the ball other than in an actual pitch, or in throwing to a base; (k) The pitcher, while touching his plate, accidentally or intentionally drops the ball; (l) The pitcher, while giving an intentional base on balls, pitches when the catcher is not in the catcher's box; (m)The pitcher delivers the pitch from Set Position without coming to a stop. PENALTY: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk. APPROVED RULING: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to a base or to home plate, a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk. APPROVED RULING: A runner who misses the first base to which he is advancing and who is called out on appeal shall be considered as having advanced one base for the purpose of this rule. Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner. If there is doubt in the umpire's mind, the "intent" of the pitcher should govern. However, certain specifics should be borne in mind: (a) Straddling the pitcher's rubber without the ball is to be interpreted as intent to deceive and ruled a balk. (b) With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unoccupied base.

Offline UMDNats

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #2: July 15, 2005, 11:15:05 PM »
the umps just wanted to end the game. why end the game on a balk. geez.

Offline rileyn

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #3: July 15, 2005, 11:21:45 PM »
If either Guillen or Castilla hit a medium range fly ball in the 7th or 8th, we win the game.

If Guzman (who sucks more and more every time I see him) doesn't make the error in the 1st, we win the game.

We are not doing the little things anymore. Ayala may need some time on the DL also.  He has been overworked and I think needs some rest.

Yes, it was an awful call, but it never should have come to this.

Offline Senators2005

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #4: July 15, 2005, 11:38:57 PM »
We hear ya rileyn and I agree...but wanted this thread to be specifically about the balk call.

Offline Kenz aFan

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #5: July 15, 2005, 11:51:59 PM »
Does anybody know if the BAT BOY can play short?

Ryan Zimmerman

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #6: July 16, 2005, 12:08:58 AM »
Quote from: "Kenz aFan"
Does anybody know if the BAT BOY can play short?



HAHAHAHHAHAHA.Good one.

T'es drole en sacrament.

Guzman suce...ou notre vrai ancien bon arret court Orlando?

Je manque les expos.

Why am I saying that?

I should be tortured.

Offline Kenz aFan

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« Reply #7: July 16, 2005, 12:16:42 AM »
I think that balk being called might turn out to be the best thing that could happen to the Nats. It just might wake them up and be the motivator they need to get back on track. If they use it, they start a good streak going, if they let it get to them, they'll just end up losing.

They need to use it to their advantage....

Offline Senators2005

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #8: July 16, 2005, 01:08:34 AM »
Nats fall on balk in 10th
By Mark Zuckerman
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
July 16, 2005


MILWAUKEE -- Frank Robinson stood ready and waiting for reporters in the center of the visitors' clubhouse at Miller Park. He didn't even need to hear the first question. He knew the answer.

"He stepped to home and threw to first -- that was the umpire's explanation," Robinson said. "Now I want you to take a look at this."

The Washington Nationals manager pointed to a freeze-framed video shot of reliever Mike Stanton at the moment he was called for a balk, the final and most bizarre moment of his club's 4-3, 10-inning loss to the Milwaukee Brewers last night.

Stanton, clearly stepping more toward first base than the plate, was nevertheless called for a game-ending balk by first-base umpire Paul Schrieber. The veteran left-hander, summoned moments earlier by Robinson to make his Nationals debut with runners on the corners and one out in extra innings, never even got a chance to throw a pitch.

As Stanton and just about everyone else in a Washington uniform stormed the field in utter disbelief, Chris Magruder strolled home from third with the winning run.

"It's very frustrating," said Stanton, who had been called for seven previous balks in his 997 career appearances but insisted he was making his regular move toward first. "There's a lot of emotions going on right there. It's just unfortunate the game has to end that way."

Unfortunate in more ways than one. With the loss, their fourth straight, the Nationals saw their lead over Atlanta in the National League East fall to 11/2 games. Done in once again by a stagnant offense and a late collapse, they suddenly find themselves at a critical point of the season, one in which everything they've worked for could fall apart if they're not careful.

"We're battling for our lives here," Robinson said. "We haven't gotten started in the win column in the second half of the season, and we had to battle in a ballgame that we were fighting for. And it was taken away from us. We weren't given a chance to compete in the 10th inning."

The Nationals led 3-2, thanks to an early offensive spurt against Brewers ace Ben Sheets and some fine pitching by their own ace, Livan Hernandez. But Hernandez served up a game-tying homer to Carlos Lee on a hanging slider in the eighth, and that set the stage for the wild 10th.

Magruder led off with a double against Washington's Luis Ayala (7-6), then moved to third on Brady Clark's sacrifice bunt. Robinson elected to intentionally walk Rickie Weeks, then summoned Stanton to face Lyle Overbay with runners on the corners.

Stanton's pickoff throw had Weeks caught. First baseman Brad Wilkerson started to move to get Weeks in a rundown, but from behind he heard Schriber yelling, "Balk! Balk!"

"We saw Stanton's move so many times when he was with the Mets. He's got a great move," Wilkerson said. "I don't believe in that situation you're going to try to trick anybody. You're just trying to hold him tight and make sure you make a good move."

Robinson compared the situation to an NBA referee calling a "touch foul" in the final seconds of a game.

"They don't do it," he said. "And they'll tell you they don't do it. ... The pity of this is nothing can be done about it."

The Nationals could have done something to prevent this game from ever going into extra innings. Despite 11 hits, they scored just three runs. They stranded six men and hit into two inning-ending double plays -- one in which Preston Wilson tried to score on a medium-deep fly ball to right and was out by five feet.

Washington did jump out to a 2-0 lead in the first. Wilkerson set the tone by crushing Sheets' second pitch into the right-field bleachers. Wilkerson's second leadoff homer of the season (14th of his career) let the rest of the Washington lineup know Sheets could be had on this night, and they responded in kind.

Jose Vidro followed with the first of his two opposite-field doubles and fought through his sore right quadriceps muscle to score on Ryan Church's single to right. Another single by Vinny Castilla capped a four-hit inning, though the Nationals might have been kicking themselves for failing to take full advantage of the situation and score more than two runs.

Sure enough, the Brewers stormed right back to tie in the bottom of the first. Weeks singled off Hernandez's glove, stole second and scored on Overbay's double. A throwing error by shortstop Cristian Guzman moved Overbay to third and allowed him to score on Geoff Jenkins' sacrifice fly.

Offline Senators2005

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #9: July 16, 2005, 04:00:31 AM »
Nationals Lose on a Balk in The 10th
Newcomer Stanton Commits Miscue: Brewers 4, Nationals 3

By Barry Svrluga
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, July 16, 2005; E01



MILWAUKEE, July 15 -- The moment was so confusing. For a split second, the runner looked to be picked off, a huge out in a tie game in the bottom of the 10th. But wait. Here was Paul Schrieber, the first base umpire, raising his arm, pointing to Mike Stanton, the left-hander making his first appearance as a Washington National.

The call: A balk. And just as Stanton raced toward Schrieber in a rage of protest, Chris Magruder sauntered home from third base, the winning run in the Milwaukee Brewers' 4-3 victory over the Nationals before 40,690 Friday night at Miller Park.

The call, and the ensuing loss, left the Nationals in a wicked combination of fuming and reeling. They have dropped four in a row, three by one run, and that karma they created winning 24 one-run games prior to the all-star break seems to have completely evaporated. They can't score runs, even when they begin the game with a homer, as they did Friday from Brad Wilkerson, one of 11 hits. And they have lost two straight starts from ace Livan Hernandez -- who carried a 3-2 lead into the eighth but allowed a two-out, game-tying homer to Carlos Lee -- for the first time all year.

All those other things went into this one, to be sure, and because of them all, the Nationals' lead over the Atlanta Braves in the National League East is just 1 1/2 games, their smallest advantage since June 18. But when the visitors clubhouse opened to reporters following the game, there was Nationals Manager Frank Robinson, standing in front of a video screen. He relayed what the umpires had told him, that Stanton had stepped toward the plate, yet thrown to first.

"Now, I want you to take a look at this," Robinson said.

He pointed to a screen, frozen on Stanton, in mid-pickoff move, striding toward first. The Nationals signed the veteran left-hander just Wednesday, and in the 10th, with runners on first and third, he made his first appearance for Washington. It was his 997th major league game. In 17 years, he had seven previous balk calls.

Moments later, in his office, Robinson ranted.

"How in the world do they think a guy as experienced as Mike Stanton is going to come into that situation and fool around with some kind of balk move?" Robinson bellowed.

Magruder, a pinch hitter, had opened the 10th with a double off Luis Ayala, and moved to third on a sacrifice. Ayala then intentionally walked Rickie Weeks, and Robinson brought in Stanton -- who, before being cut by the New York Yankees last month, had allowed left-handed hitters just a .176 batting average -- to face the left-handed hitting Lyle Overbay.

Yet Stanton is known for his pickoff move, and when he took to the rubber, he had in his mind that he would pick off Weeks, a rookie.

"That is my typical move," Stanton said.

Wilkerson, playing first for the Nationals, was on the receiving end of the throw.

"I've seen that move many times when [Stanton] was with the Mets and I was on first base," Wilkerson said. "He's got a quality move."

Wilkerson received the throw, tagged Weeks -- Wilkerson thought he had the second out -- and then moved toward the mound to see if he might be able to catch Magruder dancing off third. That's when Schrieber made the call. He told Stanton and Robinson, who charged onto the field to argue, that Stanton had stepped toward home plate but thrown to first, one of several ways a pitcher can balk. If a pitcher steps toward home, the rule states, he must throw to home.

"It was just real simple," Schrieber said. "I had his body going to the plate and throwing to first."

Asked whether Stanton's foot, or just his body, went toward home plate, Schrieber said, "Both."


Robinson vehemently disputed the call afterward, fuming in the clubhouse, challenging reporters to look at the video and call it a balk.

"The picture speaks for itself," Robinson said. "His foot is on the ground toward first base. He can't do anything else with that foot."

It all wasted a fine effort from Hernandez, an all-star who threw eight innings and allowed just two earned runs -- even after rolling an ankle in the first inning. His one error in a 136-pitch outing was to Lee in the eighth, a 1-2 slider that hung a bit too much, and Lee, who leads the National League in RBI, deposited it into the left-field seats.

"Just one mistake," catcher Brian Schneider said.

But lost in the furor over the balk call could be the Nationals' inability to get separation from an opponent. Newly acquired Preston Wilson hit an RBI double in the fifth for a 3-2 lead, but the Nationals had runners in scoring position in the seventh and eighth and failed to score, including when Wilson was thrown out to end the eighth by right fielder Geoff Jenkins.

"It's difficult under the circumstances," Robinson said. "We're battling for our lives here, and we haven't gotten started in the win column in the second half of the season, and we're in a ballgame that we're fighting for, and it was taken away from us. We weren't given a chance to compete in the 10th inning."

Montcobaseball

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #10: July 16, 2005, 09:32:21 AM »
Quote from: "Nats19"
the umps just wanted to end the game. why end the game on a balk. geez.



     So because it was the tenth inning they conspired to end the game because they wanted to go home and decided to call a balk?  You should have thought that one through before you posted it.  Not too smart.

FSN hates us

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« Reply #11: July 16, 2005, 01:51:03 PM »
Now, I'm a Brewer fan.  At first I didn't see it as a balk.  However, the umpire said Stanton was going towards home with his body, which is a balk.  After looking at the Fox Sports North replays, it appears as if the call was correct.  They have called a few balks on one of our starters, Chris Capuano for doing the same thing.  The fact that the call ended the game is pointless, if it's a balk it's a balk no matter when it happens.


Good Ole Frankers was pointing out the wrong thing.  Stanton's momentum was going home, so he has to go home.

Offline Kenz aFan

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #12: July 16, 2005, 03:25:52 PM »
Whoa my friend.... If part of Stanton's momentum as you call it, is also part of his regular motion, the umpire cannot call it a balk. Since he was never given the chance to throw one pitch, there's no way any of the umpires could know what his normal motion is. In that situation, you cannot call a balk, because it assumes something you have no knowledge of, in this case, what Stanton's normal motion would have looked like. Calling a balk was not only the wrong call, no matter when it was in the game, but it was just plain bad officiating.

Offline The Chief

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #13: July 16, 2005, 05:00:09 PM »
Quote from: "FSN hates us"
Now, I'm a Brewer fan.  At first I didn't see it as a balk.  However, the umpire said Stanton was going towards home with his body, which is a balk.  After looking at the Fox Sports North replays, it appears as if the call was correct.  They have called a few balks on one of our starters, Chris Capuano for doing the same thing.  The fact that the call ended the game is pointless, if it's a balk it's a balk no matter when it happens.


Good Ole Frankers was pointing out the wrong thing.  Stanton's momentum was going home, so he has to go home.


You're entitled to your opinion of course, but I'm sure you'll understand if nobody here agrees with you ;)

Welcome to the boards, by the way :)

Offline Senators2005

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« Reply #14: July 16, 2005, 06:12:50 PM »
An explanation suggested by the Nationals clubhouse was posted in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel which I think is probably are correct assesment on why that crappy balk was called:

The Nationals suggested that one reason for the call was the Brewers complained about the lack of a balk call in the seventh, when Nationals starter Livan Hernandez picked off pinch runner Trent Durrington at first.

That was two innings after Chad Moeller, who had led off with a double, was picked off at second by catcher Brian Schneider. The fact that Moeller was at second was loudly disputed by the fans, who thought his drive off the top of the right-field wall should have been called a home run.

The ruling was correct, though. The Miller Park ground rules state that a ball must go over the yellow line at the top of the wall, not just hit it.

The Brewers didn't beef about that decision but they had plenty to say to home plate umpire Bob Davidson about his strike zone. That's what got Yost his early exit.

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« Reply #15: July 17, 2005, 04:52:57 PM »
Quote from: "Kenz aFan"
Whoa my friend.... If part of Stanton's momentum as you call it, is also part of his regular motion, the umpire cannot call it a balk. Since he was never given the chance to throw one pitch, there's no way any of the umpires could know what his normal motion is. In that situation, you cannot call a balk, because it assumes something you have no knowledge of, in this case, what Stanton's normal motion would have looked like. Calling a balk was not only the wrong call, no matter when it was in the game, but it was just plain bad officiating.



It has nothing to do with one's "normal motion".  Your body can't go home when you throw to 1st.  It doesn't matter who's on the mound or what that pitcher's normal motion is.

Offline Kenz aFan

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« Reply #16: July 17, 2005, 06:11:18 PM »
Quote from: "FSN hates us"
It has nothing to do with one's "normal motion".  Your body can't go home when you throw to 1st.  It doesn't matter who's on the mound or what that pitcher's normal motion is.

Actually it can. After talking to a retired umpire, (who's not a Yankees fan) he told me that that after seeing Stanton pitch in Saturday's game and seeing his motion. He said, that his stance and motion was like most left handers, where they tend to lean slightly towards the plate. He also noted that Capuano's pickoff move was a much more flagrant balk move than Stanton's was.

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« Reply #17: July 17, 2005, 06:38:39 PM »
I agree that Capuano's move is always close to a balk, and I've seen him get called for basically the same thing Stanton was(weight going towards home).  The only thing that's making this such a big deal is that it ended a ballgame.

Offline Senators2005

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #18: July 17, 2005, 06:43:48 PM »
which is exactly why it should never have been called in that instance.

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« Reply #19: July 18, 2005, 05:25:09 PM »
Quote from: "Senators2005"
which is exactly why it should never have been called in that instance.



Why? So the umpires could give you an advantage?  If the balk isn't called and it was an actual balk, it's man on 3rd with 2 outs.  That basically means there's a good chance we'd see an 11th inning.  So why should they give you an unfair advantage instead of calling the game correctly?

Offline Kenz aFan

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« Reply #20: July 18, 2005, 06:37:13 PM »
Oh for Pete's sake, will everyone just give it a rest...

1) Because it's Nats fans who are complaining that it was a bad and ill timed call, Brewers fans keep tossing it in their faces.. Crew fans CHILL
 
2) If the call had been made against the Brewers, Brew Crew fans would be putting up the same stink Nats fans are, again, CHILL

3) The call happened days ago, give it up already, this thread is starting to get real old. Everyone CHILL

Let this thread slip down among the also reads...

Offline Senators2005

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That Effin Balk
« Reply #21: July 18, 2005, 07:44:07 PM »
Hey Ken we are just trying to have a discussion here   :?

Offline The Chief

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« Reply #22: July 18, 2005, 09:00:17 PM »
You guys are welcome to discuss it, but it is getting to be rather old news ;)