Author Topic: Bullpen Discussion (Read 9381 times)

PatsNats28 · « **Reply #125 on:** August 29, 2009, 11:19:40 am »

Quote from: Nat of the LivingDead on August 29, 2009, 11:16:30 am

I'd rather see the team play the odds game rather than settle on proven failure like Bergmann, Villone, Sosa. etc. This team isn't going to get any better by sitting on it's hands.

Sure, but the prospects look all nice and shiny until they post up +5 ERAs in the majors. Look at Balester and Mock for example. They were dominant in AAA but have been the exact opposite of that here. Now obviously each case is different, but what we've learned by now is that we shouldn't expect their production to hold. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want failures like Jorge Sosa. But a team could definitely make the playoffs with Jason Bergmann as their last guy out of the pen.

KnorrForYourMoney · « **Reply #126 on:** August 29, 2009, 11:54:28 am »

It's amazing how fooled some people are. I don't think a lot of you realize how truly awful this bullpen is.

blue911 · « **Reply #127 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:03:38 pm »

Quote from: KnorrForYourMoney on August 29, 2009, 11:54:28 am

It's amazing how fooled some people are. I don't think a lot of you realize how truly awful this bullpen is.

I don't see anybody saying the bullpen doesn't need to be reworked. What I do see is a bunch of people thinking that you can just "get some free agents" or "trade for some pitchers" and thinking that is some sort of cure. First of all nobody on either side has actually addressed the real problem which is this bullpen is just a bunch of guys thrown together instead of a planned bullpen where pitchers are acquired to fill specific roles.

Smithian · « **Reply #128 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:05:48 pm »

I'm not a baseball expert, but aside from like closers and setup guys, aren't bullpens put together in free agency usually failures? We still have plenty of minor league arms who can be developed before being brought into the big leagues next year. What is the chance a guy like Martis who looked like a good starter early for us could come back as a good middle or long reliever?

KnorrForYourMoney · « **Reply #129 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:09:14 pm »

Quote from: blue911 on August 29, 2009, 12:03:38 pm

I don't see anybody saying the bullpen doesn't need to be reworked. What I do see is a bunch of people thinking that you can just "get some free agents" or "trade for some pitchers" and thinking that is some sort of cure. First of all nobody on either side has actually addressed the real problem which is this bullpen is just a bunch of guys thrown together instead of a planned bullpen where pitchers are acquired to fill specific roles.

Roles are overrated. They're only necessary when you have guys like Jon Rauch who have a psychological need to take on a specific situation.

Get good pitchers and let 'em work.

And as I already said (does anyone pay attention?

) you CAN get suitable relief pitching really, really easily. Look at our '07 bullpen. That was probably the second best bullpen in D.C. We had three or four holdovers, and then used the likes of Chris Schroder, Jesus Colome, and Ray King.

KnorrForYourMoney · « **Reply #130 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:14:07 pm »

Quote from: Smithian on August 29, 2009, 12:05:48 pm

I'm not a baseball expert, but aside from like closers and setup guys, aren't bullpens put together in free agency usually failures? We still have plenty of minor league arms who can be developed before being brought into the big leagues next year. What is the chance a guy like Martis who looked like a good starter early for us could come back as a good middle or long reliever?

Who is arguing in favor of that?

At any rate, I don't know about just FA's, but the Phillies' vaunted bullpen of '08 had four guys who were brought in either via trade or free agency just prior to or during the 2008 season (Durbin, Lidge, Seanez, Eyre). Only one of their guys (Madson) was home-grown, and only two (Madson and Condrey) had been with the organization for more than two years.

blue911 · « **Reply #131 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:17:32 pm »

Quote from: KnorrForYourMoney on August 29, 2009, 12:09:14 pm

Roles are overrated. They're only necessary when you have guys like Jon Rauch who have a psychological need to take on a specific situation.

Get good pitchers and let 'em work.

And as I already said (does anyone pay attention? ) you CAN get suitable relief pitching really, really easily. Look at our '07 bullpen. That was probably the second best bullpen in D.C. We had three or four holdovers, and then used the likes of Chris Schroder, Jesus Colome, and Ray King.

Wow, is that how it works? Hey, maybe they could hire good hitters and good fielders at the same time. Because we all know that all the other teams are looking for the crappy players so it should be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.

PatsNats28 · « **Reply #132 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:23:34 pm »

Quote from: blue911 on August 29, 2009, 12:17:32 pm

Wow, is that how it works? Hey, maybe they could hire good hitters and good fielders at the same time. Because we all know that all the other teams are looking for the crappy players so it should be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.

exactly. you guys think we'll magically get these good relievers? wrong.

and the phils could get those guys because they had the pieces to give up.

The Chief · « **Reply #133 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:34:45 pm »

Quote from: blue911 on August 29, 2009, 12:17:32 pm

Wow, is that how it works? Hey, maybe they could hire good hitters and good fielders at the same time. Because we all know that all the other teams are looking for the crappy players so it should be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.

This is what I was saying all night last night, trust me they don't get it.

spidernat · « **Reply #134 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:37:12 pm »

Quote from: sportsfan882 on August 29, 2009, 12:32:58 am

YES!! Cut him because any random bum in the Minors or any bum we pick up off the street can perform as well as he has for this team.

That's not true.

NatsDad14 · « **Reply #135 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:37:49 pm »

Bringing in Free agent Relievers is a disaster waiting to happen as the Orioles proved.

spidernat · « **Reply #136 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:45:43 pm »

Quote from: sportsfan882 on August 29, 2009, 12:58:25 am

all of the Nats' relievers' current rankings:

MacDougal: 34th (high end #2 reliever)
Burnett: 59th (low end #2/high end #3 reliever)
Clippard: 87th (low end #3/high end #4 reliever)
Villone: 174th (#6 reliever)
Sosa: 327th (N/A)
Rivera: 356th (N/A)
Bergmann: 389th (N/A)

According to those rankings, Villone should remain at the back end of our bullpen.

KnorrForYourMoney · « **Reply #137 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:46:10 pm »

Quote from: PatsNats09 on August 29, 2009, 12:23:34 pm

exactly. you guys think we'll magically get these good relievers? wrong.

I wasn't aware it'd take "magic" to get someone like Brandon Lyon, Mike Gonzalez, Fernando Rodney, Chad Bradford, or Rafael Soriano in the FA market.

Quote from: PatsNats09 on August 29, 2009, 12:23:34 pm

exactly. you guys think we'll magically get these good relievers? wrong.

and the phils could get those guys because they had the pieces to give up.

The Phils got Brad Lidge by trading Mike Costanzo and Michael Bourn.

Quote from: blue911 on August 29, 2009, 12:17:32 pm

Wow, is that how it works? Hey, maybe they could hire good hitters and good fielders at the same time. Because we all know that all the other teams are looking for the crappy players so it should be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

You can achieve success with a bullpen by committee, for the most part. It's probably best to have a set closer, and possibly a set 8th-inning guy, but there's really no certain advantage to having roles for everyone in your 'pen.

blue911 · « **Reply #138 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:50:20 pm »

Quote from: KnorrForYourMoney on August 29, 2009, 12:46:10 pm

I wasn't aware it'd take "magic" to get someone like Brandon Lyon, Mike Gonzalez, Fernando Rodney, Chad Bradford, or Rafael Soriano in the FA market. The Phils got Brad Lidge by trading Mike Costanzo and Michael Bourn. :lmao:Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

You can achieve success with a bullpen by committee, for the most part. It's probably best to have a set closer, and possibly a set 8th-inning guy, but there's really no certain advantage to having roles for everyone in your 'pen.

Except every manager since John McGraw would call you an idiot, you may have a point.

KnorrForYourMoney · « **Reply #139 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:51:17 pm »

Joe Maddon wouldn't.

NatsDad14 · « **Reply #140 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:51:41 pm »

Quote from: KnorrForYourMoney on August 29, 2009, 12:46:10 pm

I wasn't aware it'd take "magic" to get someone like Brandon Lyon, Mike Gonzalez, Fernando Rodney, Chad Bradford, or Rafael Soriano in the FA market. The Phils got Brad Lidge by trading Mike Costanzo and Michael Bourn. :lmao:Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

Relievers are inconsistent which Lidge is proving. He is Joel Hanrahan-bad this season. Plus, Michael Bourn is actually a real good player this season.

JMW IV · « **Reply #141 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:51:54 pm »

well, we aren't going to ever be able to acquire good players, it's just not possible.

so we should just continue to be crappy and be happy about it.

KnorrForYourMoney · « **Reply #142 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:55:15 pm »

Quote from: JMadIV on August 29, 2009, 12:51:54 pm

well, we aren't going to ever be able to acquire good players, it's just not possible.

so we should just continue to be crappy and be happy about it.

JMad hyperbole FTW.

Well, I gave my solution for what to do with the team. Nobody overtly disagreed with it.

Does anyone else actually have a plan?

*crickets*

Ali the Baseball Cat · « **Reply #143 on:** August 29, 2009, 12:55:26 pm »

What was Beimel?

Quote from: GMUNat on August 29, 2009, 12:37:49 pm

Bringing in Free agent Relievers is a disaster waiting to happen as the Orioles proved.

NatsDad14 · « **Reply #144 on:** August 29, 2009, 01:08:59 pm »

Quote from: Ali the Baseball Cat on August 29, 2009, 12:55:26 pm

What was Beimel?

I'm not talking about garbage bin relievers (Beimel to a certain extent, Villone, McDougal). I'm talking about decent relievers who get paid. They are usually overpaid for what they are worth.

blue911 · « **Reply #145 on:** August 29, 2009, 01:14:12 pm »

Quote from: JMadIV on August 29, 2009, 12:51:54 pm

well, we aren't going to ever be able to acquire good players, it's just not possible.

so we should just continue to be crappy and be happy about it.

That isn't it. Acquire pitchers that you know can be successful in certain situations and maximize those situations. Look at the Cardinals bullpen, all they do is match up. Mike Hinckley would be a great fit for LaRussa because he understands how to get the most out of the guy. The reason guys end up as middle relievers is because they can only do one thing.

Stop this bullcrap Hammonds "You're happy losing" crap. You're smarter than that.

sportsfan882 · « **Reply #146 on:** August 29, 2009, 01:22:07 pm »

Quote from: spidernat on August 29, 2009, 12:45:43 pm

According to those rankings, Villone should remain at the back end of our bullpen.

he still has a 3.99 ERA and is living off his "hot start". Has been bad for a long while now. but his overall numbers indicate he is a #6 bulllpen option.

blue911 · « **Reply #147 on:** August 29, 2009, 01:36:12 pm »

Quote from: sportsfan882 on August 29, 2009, 01:22:07 pm

he still has a 3.99 ERA and is living off his "hot start". Has been bad for a long while now. but his overall numbers indicate he is a #6 bulllpen option.

What his numbers indicate is he should retire.

PatsNats28 · « **Reply #148 on:** August 29, 2009, 03:04:00 pm »

Quote from: KnorrForYourMoney on August 29, 2009, 12:46:10 pm

I wasn't aware it'd take "magic" to get someone like Brandon Lyon, Mike Gonzalez, Fernando Rodney, Chad Bradford, or Rafael Soriano in the FA market. The Phils got Brad Lidge by trading Mike Costanzo and Michael Bourn. :lmao:Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

You can achieve success with a bullpen by committee, for the most part. It's probably best to have a set closer, and possibly a set 8th-inning guy, but there's really no certain advantage to having roles for everyone in your 'pen.

More than one, yes. First of all, take into account they don't fit into the plan. Secondly, keep in mind that relievers are short term investments and we're not gonna win in the short term. Third, keep in mind LAC (just kidding).

I think we could possibly get one off that list, doubt we could get more than that.

KnorrForYourMoney · « **Reply #149 on:** August 29, 2009, 03:24:03 pm »

Quote from: PatsNats09 on August 29, 2009, 03:04:00 pm

More than one, yes. First of all, take into account they don't fit into the plan. Secondly, keep in mind that relievers are short term investments and we're not gonna win in the short term. Third, keep in mind LAC (just kidding).

I think we could possibly get one off that list, doubt we could get more than that.

Beimel "didn't fit in the plan" either.