Bullpen Discussion

[sportsfan882]

if some of you were in charge we would never see what we have in some of these Minor Leaguers.

they could be studs and we would never know it

Josh Wilkie is better than Jason Bergmann. now and in the future.

[sportsfan882]

This is a major problem we seem to have with our bullpen AND starting arms.

the better man stepped up tonight

that is a concern and JZ going down hurt us. SS still has a little ways to go and a lot to prove. It is important that we sign a legit Major League starter this off-season. Not necessarily an ace. but a proven guy that can pitch.

[The Chief]

Josh Wilkie is better than Jason Bergmann. now and in the future.

And yet for all the facts in your mind, you have absolutely no way of qualifying this statement.  Amazing.

If you ran the team we'd be watching pee-wee league every night

[JMW IV]

Show me where anyone ever said this, especially me.

you didn't. but you insinuated in your last post that we should keep them until we find replacements. which, in our circumstance, is self-defeating.

I'm asking you the question.

How are we supposed to find comparable replacements if we aren't willing to try new "unproven" people?

also, I don't see the benefit in keeping any of them at all in the first place. Seriously, what exactly are we going to lose, if we get rid of those three on Sept. 1st? What benefit do they bring to this team right now, other than warm bodies?

in 4 days, all three should be gone, whether we "find comparable replacements" by then or not. between Sept. 1st and Opening Day 2010, their spots will be filled. either by prospects who have earned it, by trade, or by FA signing of "known commodities".

[JMW IV]

And yet for all the facts in your mind, you have absolutely no way of qualifying this statement. 

the only way to qualify that statement, is to give the kids a chance to prove themselves.

I don't see what's wrong with doing so.

[JMW IV]

we have a month's worth of games coming up, and absolutely nothing to play for.

now's the time to get rid of the crap, and start working on filling the roster for 2010.

bring em up, let's see what we have, what we don't have, what we need to look for in Free Agency, and what we have to trade.

get rid of the dead weight that should by all rights no longer have a place in the organization.

let the kids sink or swim, and if they sink, then so be it. what do we have to lose in 2009?

[spidernat]

If you ran the team we'd be watching pee-wee league every night

Only temporarily. SF is the Benjamin Button of baseball. It wouldn't take long for him to literally field a team of "players to be named later" because they haven't been born yet and are still pitching in their daddy's balls.

[The Chief]

you didn't. but you insinuated in your last post that we should keep them until we find replacements. which, in our circumstance, is self-defeating.

So are we taking everything everyone says literally, or exaggerating it wildly?  Because you keep switching, and I can't keep up.  Go re-read my last post carefully and take another shot at what I was insinuating.  Sheesh.

I'm asking you the question.

How are we supposed to find comparable replacements if we aren't willing to try new people?

Why are you asking me this question?  I never advocated carrying the current 'pen into 2010 or even next week.

The only things I ever stated or implied were that Bergmann isn't as horrible as SF thinks he is, and that SF is making a fool of himself by judging a reliever on their ERA.  Bergmann has appeared in 39 games.  If you take away his worst outing (5 runners and none retired against the Rays) his ERA drops to near league average for relievers.

Now go ahead and infer a bunch of crap I never said or implied from that post.  I know at least one of you will.

[sportsfan882]

And yet for all the facts in your mind, you have absolutely no way of qualifying this statement.  Amazing.

If you ran the team we'd be watching pee-wee league every night

but if we never give Wilkie a chance and stuck with bums like Bergmann how would we ever prove who is better and how would we field a quality bullpen?

[The Chief]

but if we never give Wilkie a chance and stuck with bums like Bergmann how would we ever prove who is better and how would we field a quality bullpen?

Considering this is continuously what you and JMad keep falling back on, I'm going to consider my part in this discussion over.  You've both got me confused with someone else.

[JMW IV]

The only things I ever stated or implied were that Bergmann isn't as horrible as SF thinks he is, and that SF is making a fool of himself by judging a reliever on their ERA.  Bergmann has appeared in 39 games.  If you take away his worst outing (5 runners and none retired against the Rays) his ERA drops to near league average for relievers.

fine. apparently I was only arguing against PC's opinion and not yours. my bad.

I'll ask you this.

Do you think Bergmann belongs in our pen next season, or in the foreseeable future?

I'll take it a step further.  Do you think Bergmann should remain in our pen after Sept. 1st?

[sportsfan882]

chief, I'm not even sure what you are arguing then. you have defended Bergmann and don't want any of our minor leaguers to get a shot because they are unproven.

[The Chief]

Do you think Bergmann belongs in our pen next season, or in the foreseeable future?

Ideally, no.  Satisfied?

Now let me ask you this - If Rizzo can't bring in outside talent of equal or better quality for a reasonable price (in terms of talent or payroll), and doesn't see anything he likes better in the minors, do you think Bergmann should be cut just because?

chief, I'm not even sure

Shocker.

I didn't bother quoting the rest of what you said because none of it was true or relevant.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

It seems like Chief is simply contending that Bergmann should be kept, along with the other three we mentioned.

I still disagree with him on that, though.  Although he ended our discussion with a "taking my ball and leaving the playground" comment, he was unable to justify that Bergmann is worth keeping.  It's documented fact that Bergmann puts together decent partial seasons, yet can't keep it together for an entire season.

[PC]

Let me chime in one more time about the market for pitching.  You do realize that almost every bum we released got signed by another team?  Think about that.  All of the garbage that we, too slowly, dumped, most of it got picked up by somebody.

That's how desperate the market is for pitching.  Yes, you can go to your farm system for pitching help but at what cost?  What if, around early June, you figure out they're not ready?  What do you do then?

You won't even be able to get Jason Bergmann because he'll likely already be signed by somebody else.  

...and we'll be in exactly the place we are now.

My position is simply to bring your prospects along slowly and not RUSH THEM ALL UP AT THE SAME TIME!

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Let me chime in one more time about the market for pitching.  You do realize that almost every bum we released got signed by another team?  Think about that.  All of the garbage that we, too slowly, dumped, most of it got picked up by somebody.

That's how desperate the market is for pitching.  Yes, you can go to your farm system for pitching help but at what cost?  What if, around early June, you figure out they're not ready?  What do you do then?

You won't even be able to get Jason Bergmann because he'll likely already be signed by somebody else. 

...and we'll be in exactly the place we are now.

So what?  You've just proven the ultimate point: we have nothing to lose by experimenting or at least trying to galvanize some kind of change.

[PC]

So what?  You've just proven the ultimate point: we have nothing to lose by experimenting or at least trying to galvanize some kind of change.

I added a sentence to my post:

My position is simply to bring your prospects along slowly and not RUSH THEM ALL UP AT THE SAME TIME!

[The Chief]

It seems like Chief is simply contending that Bergmann should be kept, along with the other three we mentioned.

Depends.  I know that just burns you guys up, but not every answer in life is a clear-cut yes or no.

Although he ended our discussion with a "taking my ball and leaving the playground" comment

Because your post deserved such a serious response?

justify that Bergmann is worth keeping.  It's documented fact that Bergmann puts together decent partial seasons, yet can't keep it together for an entire season.

Just read PC's post.

[sportsfan882]

Ideally, no.  Satisfied?

Now let me ask you this - If Rizzo can't bring in outside talent of equal or better quality for a reasonable price (in terms of talent or payroll), and doesn't see anything he likes better in the minors, do you think Bergmann should be cut just because?

YES!! Cut him because any random bum in the Minors or any bum we pick up off the street can perform as well as he has for this team.

Shocker.

I didn't bother quoting the rest of what you said because none of it was true or relevant.

I don't know what you are arguing and from the sound of it I don't think you know yourself what you are arguing. can you please clarify your point again? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

[The Chief]

I don't know what you are arguing and from the sound of it I don't think you know yourself what you are arguing. can you please clarify your point again? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

The only things I ever stated or implied were that Bergmann isn't as horrible as SF thinks he is, and that SF is making a fool of himself by judging a reliever on their ERA.  Bergmann has appeared in 39 games.  If you take away his worst outing (5 runners and none retired against the Rays) his ERA drops to near league average for relievers.

Pay attention junior!  My point was that by the stat you clung to, Bergmann is essentially an average reliever.  We can do much worse.  Ideally, no, he wouldn't be in our pen.  But I want Rizzo to be damn sure we're replacing him with something better before they cut him loose for good.  Why is that so unreasonable?

[sportsfan882]

I added a sentence to my post:

My position is simply to bring your prospects along slowly and not RUSH THEM ALL UP AT THE SAME TIME!

none of the prospects that I have suggested have been rushed. these guys have dominated at every level. How about we take a look at Josh Wilkie for example:



He has dominated at each high level of the minors (High-A, AA, AAA). He is 25. He is ready for the Big Leagues.

[KnorrForYourMoney]

Because your post deserved such a serious response?

I brought up a fact about Bergmann's track record to counter something you said.  If you believed that to be "childish" or insufficient in some way, then I'm not even sure what you were looking for.

Just read PC's post.

I already outlined how you can set up the bullpen for next season.  I have all the answers.

Seriously, this works:

MacDougal
Clippard
Burnett
FA
FA
young guy (Storen, Wilkie, Spradlin, Novoa)
possibly another young guy

Brandon Lyon will be available, so there's one possibility right there.

[The Chief]

Glad you acknowledge that it's a waste of time to defend a pitcher who can't cut it.  It's about time.

Not sure what you were thinking of but I stopped paying attention to you after that remark.

[sportsfan882]

Pay attention junior!  My point was that by the stat you clung to, Bergmann is essentially an average reliever.  We can do much worse.  Ideally, no, he wouldn't be in our pen.  But I want Rizzo to be damn sure we're replacing him with something better before they cut him loose for good.  Why is that so unreasonable?

Bergmann is not an average reliever. Sportsline ranks all relievers in baseball by a variety of common pitching stats.

Just for perspective, MacDougal is ranked 34th which would put him as a high-end #2 reliever.

Burnett is ranked 59th which would put him as a low-end #2 reliever/high-end #3 reliever.

Clippard is 87th which would put him as a low end #3/high end #4 reliever.

Sounds fair, yes?

Bergmann is ranked 389th which would have him as the 13th reliever on a team's MLB depth chart. but you can only carry 7-8..

[JMW IV]

 Yes, you can go to your farm system for pitching help but at what cost?  What if, around early June, you figure out they're not ready?  What do you do then?

If we bring them up *now* when we have *nothing to play for*, we will have *time* to figure out whether they are ready or not, *now*, rather than doing it in *June of next season*.