Washington Redskins Thread (2009)

[UMDNats]

I know you're young but here is a bit of breaking news, it's been offense-driven for over 30 years. And in that time defenses still carry their respective teams to championships.

Formula:

Defense + franchise QB = SB

[d_mc_nabb]

lol, if their OL is so good, then why is it pretty much a consensus (media, fans) that every position but G (Kemoeatu) needs to be upgraded?

And yea NO doesn't have a great OL.

Because media, fans are morons. They base the information off the fact that Ben gets sacked a ton of times per season. Which is true. But it's not the O-Lin'es fault. And for the record, their O-line was better than Arizona's.

New Orleans does have a good offensive line, actually. 3 Pro Bowlers, plus a LT on IR. And O-line isn't something fans can vote on outside of their own team. The NFL isn't entirely fan based voting. Jahri Evans is among the best in the league, and contrary to his first half SB play, Jermon Bushrod is very good too.

[UMDNats]

Because media, fans are morons. They base the information off the fact that Ben gets sacked a ton of times per season. Which is true. But it's not the O-Lin'es fault. And for the record, their O-line was better than Arizona's.

no, they base on the fact that the OL gets ZERO push on running plays and generally can't pass protect. do a lot of sacks result from ben's holding on to the ball? yes. but it's also the running game, which fails to consistently block well.

the trenches are obviously important and the steelers OL got much better than 2008 but its still mediocre-bad

[spidernat]

New Orleans' DL is pretty bad, and their OL is only above average.

lol, if their OL is so good, then why is it pretty much a consensus (media, fans) that every position but G (Kemoeatu) needs to be upgraded?

And yea NO doesn't have a great OL.

It depends on how you measure it. A lot in the media, not to mention fans, judge this by the number of well known "names" playing in those respective units. If there aren't several pro bowlers (a joke measure) then the line blows. The way to measure these units is by how effective their offense is when they are on the field. Both the Steelers and the Saints were effective amassing yards and scoring (NO more than Pit but Pit was still in the upper half of the league), especially when you factor in how much these teams threw the ball.  Some DL may not have flashy names but they play well as a unit or in some cases free up players behind them to make plays.

[d_mc_nabb]

no, they base on the fact that the OL gets ZERO push on running plays and generally can't pass protect. do a lot of sacks result from ben's holding on to the ball? yes. but it's also the running game, which fails to consistently block well.

the trenches are obviously important and the steelers OL got much better than 2008 but its still mediocre-bad

If it's a QBs league, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Yes, I agree the league is tipping to pass oriented. But no QB can put up numbers like Roethlisberger's unless they a. make amazing adjustments and have the talent, or b. have a good (blocking) O-line.

[spidernat]

Formula:

Defense + franchise QB = SB

You just made a case for Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler, Jim McMahon and Jim Plunkett as franchise QB's. 

[UMDNats]

You just made a case for Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Mark Rypien, Doug Williams, Jeff Hostetler, Jim McMahon and Jim Plunkett as franchise QB's. 

Didn't realize those guys were playing right now. I'm not talking about 20 years ago.

[UMDNats]

It depends on how you measure it. A lot in the media, not to mention fans, judge this by the number of well known "names" playing in those respective units. If there aren't several pro bowlers (a joke measure) then the line blows. The way to measure these units is by how effective their offense is when they are on the field. Both the Steelers and the Saints were effective amassing yards and scoring (NO more than Pit but Pit was still in the upper half of the league), especially when you factor in how much these teams threw the ball.  Some DL may not have flashy names but they play well as a unit or in some cases free up players behind them to make plays.

In the red zone, there was never any kind of push. Yards are great, but they were more of a result of the skill position players being great than great blocking. And when they needed TDs they got FGs. The Steelers need to improve their OL, and that's a fact.

Now, back to where this all started, the Skins need to take an OL. The QBs at the top of the draft don't impress me at all. Any young QB that comes into this team will get eaten alive.

[spidernat]

Didn't realize those guys were playing right now. I'm not talking about 20 years ago.

You fail to realize that the game isn't as different as you think it is. I didn't go back another 15 years because you could make a case that the game was a little less offense-drive (your phrase) but over the last 30 years the rules have favored the offense and passing has become more prominent. Those QB's represent 7 titles over the last 30 years or 23% of SB winning QB's. Actually you can even include Joe Theismann in that bunch/time span and bump it to over 26%. Guys like Fouts, Kelly, Marino, Moon and others had modern offenses and they threw the ball all over the place. If what you're saying is true that offenses are much more advanced now then how do you explain players and receiving seasons (someone had to throw them the ball) like Jerry Rice, Chris Carter, the Posse, Michael Irvin, Lynn Swan, Irving Fryar, Andre Reed, James Lofton, Henry Ellard? Throwing the ball is not a 21st century innovation. I know you haven't been watching football for more than 10 years tops but that doesn't mean the the forward pass was just invented when Roethlisberger entered the NFL. The only difference now is that they throw a lot more short passes to TE's and RB's and especially inside the 5 yard line. 

[spidernat]

Yards are great, but they were more of a result of the skill position players (Roethlisberger) being great (Roethlisberger) than great blocking.

Jay Mariotti has done OK for himself so you should be all right too.   

[UMDNats]

You fail to realize that the game isn't as different as you think it is. I didn't go back another 15 years because you could make a case that the game was a little less offense-drive (your phrase) but over the last 30 years the rules have favored the offense and passing has become more prominent. Those QB's represent 7 titles over the last 30 years or 23% of SB winning QB's. Actually you can even include Joe Theismann in that bunch/time span and bump it to over 26%. Guys like Fouts, Kelly, Marino, Moon and others had modern offenses and they threw the ball all over the place. If what you're saying is true that offenses are much more advanced now then how do you explain players and receiving seasons (someone had to throw them the ball) like Jerry Rice, Chris Carter, the Posse, Michael Irvin, Lynn Swan, Irving Fryar, Andre Reed, James Lofton, Henry Ellard? Throwing the ball is not a 21st century innovation. I know you haven't been watching football for more than 10 years tops but that doesn't mean the the forward pass was just invented when Roethlisberger entered the NFL. The only difference now is that they throw a lot more short passes to TE's and RB's and especially inside the 5 yard line.

In 1990 1 quarterback (Warren Moon) threw for 4000 yards. #10 QB had a rating of 81.

 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1990/leaders.htm

In 2000 3 quarterbacks threw for 4000 yards. #10 QB had a rating of 84.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2000/leaders.htm

In 2009 10 quarterbacks from 4000 yards. #10 QB had a rating of 93.

 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2009/leaders.htm

It's a QB league now. It's not a late 2000s revelation, but right now all the stats on offense favor quarterbacks. The NFL had 20 QBs with ratings of over 80 this year!

[UMDNats]

Jay Mariotti has done OK for himself so you should be all right too.   

No, I mean guys like Holmes, Ward, Miller, and Mendenhall added to Roethlisberger.

[d_mc_nabb]

It occurs to me that QBs might be getting statistically better because it is now illegal to actually tackle them. There is a lot more protection, and therefore less to be scared of. A QB isn't afraid of a heltmet first hit, or a hit below the knee, or being driven into the ground, or a late hit, etc. And in an odd way, it allows a fraction of a second more time.

[UMDNats]

It occurs to me that QBs might be getting statistically better because it is now illegal to actually tackle them. There is a lot more protection, and therefore less to be scared of. A QB isn't afraid of a heltmet first hit, or a hit below the knee, or being driven into the ground, or a late hit, etc. And in an odd way, it allows a fraction of a second more time.

Absolutely. The defense can't hit the QB hard, and DBs can't touch WRs. The result is a pass-happy league (well, that, and the continued development of the West Coast-type offense).

[HalfSmokes]

Ben is not a franchise quarterback? Are you serious? Look at the stats, dude. Not to mention 2 Super Bowls in 6 years. Even Ravens fans will admit he's a franchise quarterback.

Above average/good QBs can get by if they turn it on when it matters. Eli is a franchise QB. He's the face of the Giants. I don't personally think he's that good but he's a franchise QB. The Giants stand behind him and he's their guy.

Last 5 Super bowl winners

Ben
Peyton
Eli
Ben
Brees

Why do you think teams with rookie QBs who just game manage and play average can't make it to the super bowl, even though their Ds are good? Today's NFL is all about the QB. That's why teams put all their hopes and dreams in them and why you need one to win it all.

the problem is picking the franchise guy. Of that list only two, Peyton (1 sb) and Eli (2 sbs), were the first qb taken their year. Expand it by a few years to include Brady and the overwhelming majority were won by guys who were not the first qb off the board

[UMDNats]

the problem is picking the franchise guy. Of that list two Peyton (1 sb) and Eli (2 sbs) were the only ones who were the first qb taken their year.

Definitely. If you miss, your team is set back by 4-5 years.

[PatsNats28]

It depends on how you measure it. A lot in the media, not to mention fans, judge this by the number of well known "names" playing in those respective units. If there aren't several pro bowlers (a joke measure) then the line blows. The way to measure these units is by how effective their offense is when they are on the field. Both the Steelers and the Saints were effective amassing yards and scoring (NO more than Pit but Pit was still in the upper half of the league), especially when you factor in how much these teams threw the ball.  Some DL may not have flashy names but they play well as a unit or in some cases free up players behind them to make plays.

Not necessarily, because Brees compensates with his quick release. Nowadays, you need to be able to keep your guy off the QB for 3 seconds and you're good.

[HalfSmokes]

Definitely. If you miss, your team is set back by 4-5 years.

Especially when you consider that some years that guy just isn't there. I think this is one of those years. At least now with Shannahan here instead of Vinny you can't really question the team if the go after one.

[PatsNats28]

Absolutely. The defense can't hit the QB hard, and DBs can't touch WRs. The result is a pass-happy league (well, that, and the continued development of the West Coast-type offense).

Yeah I find it annoying. I don't mind the concept of a passing league, but they need to make two important changes:

1. Relax the roughing the passer rules. Driving into a guy is fine, it's part of the game. Late hits should be called as well as unnecessary roughness (picking the guy up and throwing him, etc.)
2. Get rid of the Bill Polian "no contact after 5 yards" rule.

Then we're good.

[UMDNats]

Yeah I find it annoying. I don't mind the concept of a passing league, but they need to make two important changes:

1. Relax the roughing the passer rules. Driving into a guy is fine, it's part of the game. Late hits should be called as well as unnecessary roughness (picking the guy up and throwing him, etc.)
2. Get rid of the Bill Polian "no contact after 5 yards" rule.

Then we're good.

Yea. There's too many penalties for hitting QBs too hard. Keep the "going after knees" penalty if you have to, but only call it if it's obvious. Not the Suggs BS.

[imref]

Especially when you consider that some years that guy just isn't there. I think this is one of those years. At least now with Shannahan here instead of Vinny you can't really question the team if the go after one.

they always could consider trying to get Quinn from Cleveland, maybe Shanahan could make him reach another level.

[imref]

the problem is picking the franchise guy. Of that list only two, Peyton (1 sb) and Eli (2 sbs), were the first qb taken their year. Expand it by a few years to include Brady and the overwhelming majority were won by guys who were not the first qb off the board

that's why you don't reach for a QB early on, if you can get a sure-fire stud then you take him, otherwise you draft best available and get a QB later on.  Take a guy like Davis or Okung at #5, then a Colt McCoy in the 2nd round.

[UMDNats]

that's why you don't reach for a QB early on, if you can get a sure-fire stud then you take him, otherwise you draft best available and get a QB later on.  Take a guy like Davis or Okung at #5, then a Colt McCoy in the 2nd round.

If the skins can do that it's a great draft

[PatsNats28]

except mccoy will be a bust. you're better off getting lefevour in the 3rd.