Author Topic: Military History  (Read 6478 times)

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Offline The Chief

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Military History
« Topic Start: October 03, 2013, 11:38:36 PM »
This is Chief's topic.  It was always Chief's topic.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Military History
« Reply #1: October 04, 2013, 11:58:15 AM »
Wow, I didn't even know he was still alive.  Whatever one's position on the war and it's various parties, his victory at Dien Bien Phu must stand as one of the all-time most amazing examples of military moxie. 

Vo Nguyen Giap

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/military-leader-vo-nguyen-giap-defeated-french-us-forces-in-vietnam-conflicts/2013/10/04/897ffff2-c5da-11df-94e1-c5afa35a9e59_story.html

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Military History
« Reply #2: October 04, 2013, 12:46:21 PM »
From wiki on Dien Bien Phu:

Quote
French author Jules Roy suggests Admiral Radford discussed with the French the possibility of using nuclear weapons in support of the French garrison.[84] Moreover, John Foster Dulles reportedly mentioned the possibility of lending atomic bombs to the French for use at Dien Bien Phu,[85] and a similar source claims then British Foreign Secretary Sir Anthony Eden was aware of the possibility of the use of nuclear weapons in that region.[86]

Giap was still the head of the army up through the fall of Saigon. 


Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Military History
« Reply #3: October 04, 2013, 06:38:56 PM »
The wiki on dien bien phu compares it to Khe Sanh and to a prior french air drop supplied garrisoning victory.  Giap learned from the earlier loss about the importance of positioning his artillery and getting a heavy AA presence.  In the earlier battle, the french controlled the high ground and Giap used frontal assaults.  The theory was that DBP could disrupt Viet Minh operationis in Laos, another French area.  IT was set up as a deep forward base in the northwest. however, Dien Bien Phu was in the bottom of a valley.  The french did not realize how much artillery and anti-aircraft guns were up in the surrounding hills.  The french artillery commander committed suicide the first night of the battle when he realized what a mistake he made.  the artillery knocked out HQ bunkers in a couple of positions and made the air strip unusable. Still, the Viet Minh took more casualties in the early stages of the battle than the french forces.  however, the inability of the french, with covert US help, to resupply the troops and provide effective air support let Giap knock off the french strong points one by one. 

It's not clear whether Khe Sanh was an attempt to distract the US from the main Tet offensive or whether Giap thought he could pull off another Dien Bein Phu.  Khe Sanh was another forward base, it was much closer to US bases so resupply was simpler and in greater quantity.  Also, air support was much more effective, and it was on the high ground.  Truly an amazing, courageous effort by the marines, air cavalry, and other units involved.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Military History
« Reply #4: October 04, 2013, 06:40:43 PM »
Giap was one of the great military tacticians of the 20th Century (apologies to Ike, Rommel, Zhukov, etc.).    I'm not gonna venture into the politics of it and "what ifs" but consider that he either defeated or partnered in the defeat and withdrawl of the Japanese, French and Americans from Indochina.    That's a pretty hefty resume'.

Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Military History
« Reply #5: October 04, 2013, 08:24:20 PM »

that kind of thing is allowed to happen when you allow politics on the battlefield. I've heard it said that had we continued our airstrikes from the beginning, we would have routed the VC. Accurate? Hell if I know, but handcuffing the military in combat doesn't seem effective.

Sorry for digressing.

there's a quote from the post obit about him knowing he could beat the French in Paris and a Marine General commenting very early on the same may be true of the Americans in Washington. There is only so long a country is willing to keep troops in the field taking casualties with no end in sight.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Military History
« Reply #6: October 04, 2013, 08:29:53 PM »
there's a quote from the post obit about him knowing he could beat the French in Paris and a Marine General commenting very early on the same may be true of the Americans in Washington. There is only so long a country is willing to keep troops in the field taking casualties with no end in sight.

Perhaps his greatest attribute was he knew his enemy.   They could not fight the Japanese, French or us toe to toe.   

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Online Slateman

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Re: Military History
« Reply #7: October 04, 2013, 08:36:20 PM »
I walked in the desert once. It was like summer camp. But different.

Online Slateman

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Re: Military History
« Reply #8: October 04, 2013, 08:57:25 PM »
Twas long before the time of no money

Offline Copecwby20

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Re: Military History
« Reply #9: October 05, 2013, 09:31:11 AM »
Back in those days, when giants roamed the dessert, the coffers were full.

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Military History
« Reply #10: October 05, 2013, 11:07:47 AM »
As awful as it surely must have been at Khe Sanh, the Americans never lost use of the airfield (and also had helicopters), plus could call in overpowering air and artillery support. 

The French were basically freaked when the airfield was no longer usable.  I can only imagine what thoughts were going through the heads of the paras as they jumped into that crapshow knowing that there was no hope of evacuation or escape. 

But even Khe Sanh probably did what it was supposed to do as far as Giap was concerned - be a decoy operation that distracted Westmoreland from taking much note of the VC/NVA buildup all around the south that culminated in the Tet offensive.  I think the base was abandoned shortly after the siege was broken. 

We went to Khe Sanh a couple of years ago...the place is bleak and pretty much featureless with low hills off in the distance around it.  There are no reminders of what went down there in '68 other than some rusting pieces of the airstrip, and old derelict helicopter or two, a rusting tank, and a crappy museum full of over-the-top propaganda.

The wiki on dien bien phu compares it to Khe Sanh and to a prior french air drop supplied garrisoning victory.  Giap learned from the earlier loss about the importance of positioning his artillery and getting a heavy AA presence.  In the earlier battle, the french controlled the high ground and Giap used frontal assaults.  The theory was that DBP could disrupt Viet Minh operationis in Laos, another French area.  IT was set up as a deep forward base in the northwest. however, Dien Bien Phu was in the bottom of a valley.  The french did not realize how much artillery and anti-aircraft guns were up in the surrounding hills.  The french artillery commander committed suicide the first night of the battle when he realized what a mistake he made.  the artillery knocked out HQ bunkers in a couple of positions and made the air strip unusable. Still, the Viet Minh took more casualties in the early stages of the battle than the french forces.  however, the inability of the french, with covert US help, to resupply the troops and provide effective air support let Giap knock off the french strong points one by one. 

It's not clear whether Khe Sanh was an attempt to distract the US from the main Tet offensive or whether Giap thought he could pull off another Dien Bein Phu.  Khe Sanh was another forward base, it was much closer to US bases so resupply was simpler and in greater quantity.  Also, air support was much more effective, and it was on the high ground.  Truly an amazing, courageous effort by the marines, air cavalry, and other units involved.

Online Slateman

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Re: Military History
« Reply #11: October 05, 2013, 03:02:39 PM »

Offline tomterp

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Re: Military History
« Reply #12: October 05, 2013, 04:03:50 PM »
As awful as it surely must have been at Khe Sanh, the Americans never lost use of the airfield (and also had helicopters), plus could call in overpowering air and artillery support. 

The French were basically freaked when the airfield was no longer usable.  I can only imagine what thoughts were going through the heads of the paras as they jumped into that crapshow knowing that there was no hope of evacuation or escape. 

But even Khe Sanh probably did what it was supposed to do as far as Giap was concerned - be a decoy operation that distracted Westmoreland from taking much note of the VC/NVA buildup all around the south that culminated in the Tet offensive.  I think the base was abandoned shortly after the siege was broken. 

We went to Khe Sanh a couple of years ago...the place is bleak and pretty much featureless with low hills off in the distance around it.  There are no reminders of what went down there in '68 other than some rusting pieces of the airstrip, and old derelict helicopter or two, a rusting tank, and a crappy museum full of over-the-top propaganda.

Khe Sanh was quite a battle.  I take issue with part of your comment - the Marines artillery was distinctly inferior to that possessed by the NVA in that they could hit us, while remaining out of range.  By the time the coordinates could be developed, the NVA would simply move the artillery and thus remain safe from the air strikes certain to follow a barrage.  There was no artillery the US could call in, only air support.  The airfield within the base was under constant fire, landing was perilous but remained the lifeline to the base.

The NVA tunneled closer and closer to the perimeter wire, deep narrow trenches that resisted any damage from mortar fire.  Eventually, the Americans (and ARVN Rangers) realized they were about to go the way of the French, and out of desperation ordered a massive air strike to be delivered just outside the perimeter, much closer than typically risked.  The air strike succeeded, collapsing the trenches.  The NVA, frustrated, conducted a frontal assault against the ARVN position (they no doubt had inside informants relaying positions) and were slaughtered in huge numbers.  Never again did they attempt a direct fight on that scale.

Online Slateman

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Re: Military History
« Reply #13: October 05, 2013, 04:07:00 PM »
Khe Sanh is the reason the Marine Corps has 155 cannons and not 105 like the Army

Offline JCA-CrystalCity

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Re: Military History
« Reply #14: October 05, 2013, 05:14:04 PM »

Offline tomterp

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Re: Military History
« Reply #15: October 05, 2013, 06:27:55 PM »
IIRC US F4 Pilots repeatedly encountered NVA SAM sites but were not allowed to engage them due to the suspected presence of Soviet advisers.

I never quite understood the compulsion to avoid soviets.  If they get in the way, too bad.

Online Slateman

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Re: Military History
« Reply #16: October 05, 2013, 06:38:08 PM »
I never quite understood the compulsion to avoid soviets.  If they get in the way, too bad.
Because the US thought that that if they were seen to be intentionally targeting Soviet advisers, the USSR would escalate the war.

Offline mitlen

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Re: Military History
« Reply #17: October 05, 2013, 06:50:45 PM »
I never quite understood the compulsion to avoid soviets. 

Europe

Online Slateman

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Re: Military History
« Reply #18: October 05, 2013, 07:23:44 PM »

this. Avoiding those targets cost us how many American air crew?
How many more would have died with more Soviet involvement?

Online Slateman

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Re: Military History
« Reply #19: October 05, 2013, 08:18:08 PM »
I'm betting that a war with the USSR would have cost more lives.

Offline CALSGR8

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Offline HalfSmokes

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Re: Military History
« Reply #21: October 05, 2013, 08:39:10 PM »
Who knows? Perhaps fewer? I really don't know but the fact is we know we list a lot of men to SAM sites that should have been destroyed. Not only that, but what happens if our carpet bombing runs continue without any hiatus? We got fooled badly by Tet.

so the Sam sites get taken out, lets say best case we win, then what? 20 or 30 years as an occupying power in a country that doesnt want you, taking constant casualties.there never was an end game in that war, any success would have been fleeting

Offline TigerFan

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Re: Military History
« Reply #22: October 05, 2013, 11:43:08 PM »
so the Sam sites get taken out, lets say best case we win, then what? 20 or 30 years as an occupying power in a country that doesnt want you, taking constant casualties.there never was an end game in that war, any success would have been fleeting

When did the conversation turn to Iraq/Afghanistan?

Offline mitlen

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Re: Military History
« Reply #23: October 06, 2013, 08:48:33 AM »
When did the conversation turn to Iraq/Afghanistan?

Zing

Offline Ali the Baseball Cat

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Re: Military History
« Reply #24: October 06, 2013, 10:39:41 AM »
If there had been any more bombing than there actually was there would not have been a blade of grass left standing in Laos.  You still can't walk anywhere that hasn't been cleared in the southern half of the country, and people get blown up every day.