Author Topic: Why such a short leash for Minor League pitchers?  (Read 2206 times)

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Offline daveb32

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I'm sick of seeing Minor League pitchers pitch 6 innings of 2 hit ball and get pulled. This approach does not build stamina. Screw pitch count, it should be based on how the pitcher is pitching. If he's thrown 50 pitches in the 6th inning but is getting hit around, pull him. If he's got a no hitter through 7 innings but is at 105 pitches leave him in. Let his play show when he should come out of the ballgame, not a stupid pitch count.

Recent outings:
Cory Van Allen: 7IP 2H 0ER 0R 2BB 8SO
Adrian Alaniz: 6IP 2H 0ER 0R 3BB 6SO
Tyler Clippard: 5IP 4H 2ER 2R 2BB 5SO
Ross Detwiler: 6IP 4H 1ER 1R 0BB 6SO

Offline ronnynat

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FEAR! I freaking hate it.

Offline spidernat

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FEAR! I freaking hate it.

That and the idea of babying pitchers by taking them out on a positive note probably cost us the game today. This is why so many of these guys cannot handle pressure situations. They're not used to it. When the expectations are low expect low results.

Offline PANatsFan

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I'm sick of seeing Minor League pitchers pitch 6 innings of 2 hit ball and get pulled. This approach does not build stamina. Screw pitch count, it should be based on how the pitcher is pitching. If he's thrown 50 pitches in the 6th inning but is getting hit around, pull him. If he's got a no hitter through 7 innings but is at 105 pitches leave him in. Let his play show when he should come out of the ballgame, not a stupid pitch count.

Recent outings:
Cory Van Allen: 7IP 2H 0ER 0R 2BB 8SO
Adrian Alaniz: 6IP 2H 0ER 0R 3BB 6SO
Tyler Clippard: 5IP 4H 2ER 2R 2BB 5SO
Ross Detwiler: 6IP 4H 1ER 1R 0BB 6SO

Pitch counts would be my guess. Who cares about Minor League wins? I care about prospect development.

Offline ronnynat

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Pitch counts would be my guess. Who cares about Minor League wins? I care about prospect development.

It's not about their record as much as it's about keeping guys out there that are pitching well. Why take a guy out because of pitch count when he doesn't look tired out there? It really makes no sense.

Offline d_mc_nabb

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Pitch counts would be my guess. Who cares about Minor League wins? I care about prospect development.

but increasing pitch count, in a way, is development. if you have a young guy who is spectacular stuff but can only throw 70 pitches a game, it's hardly worht having him.

Offline PANatsFan

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but increasing pitch count, in a way, is development. if you have a young guy who is spectacular stuff but can only throw 70 pitches a game, it's hardly worht having him.

Did you check the pitch counts on  those starts? Or just the number of innings? Maybe they were way over the limit. Also they need these guys for a full season. Young pitchers are usually allowed to increase like 30 innings a year. They are probably pacing them

Offline blue911

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Did you check the pitch counts on  those starts? Or just the number of innings? Maybe they were way over the limit. Also they need these guys for a full season. Young pitchers are usually allowed to increase like 30 innings a year. They are probably pacing them

I think this is probably the reason for the short starts. Relievers are used differently in the minors as well (more like they are used in ST).

Offline First Base Lady

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Not sure about this year, but last year every pitcher at every level had a pitch count.  I believe the reasoning is to protect young, developing arms. I know that the relievers at our level (SS-A) were also on a "pitch count" of sorts.  For every inning they threw, they were off that many days.   Not sure if that hold true again this year as our season has not started.  I am heading down to extended spring training this Friday and will ask the pitching rehab coach what gives. 

Offline PANatsFan

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Not sure about this year, but last year every pitcher at every level had a pitch count.  I believe the reasoning is to protect young, developing arms. I know that the relievers at our level (SS-A) were also on a "pitch count" of sorts.  For every inning they threw, they were off that many days.   Not sure if that hold true again this year as our season has not started.  I am heading down to extended spring training this Friday and will ask the pitching rehab coach what gives. 

Sounds like fun. Florida sounds nice with all the disgusting cold rain going on.

Offline daveb32

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Did you check the pitch counts on  those starts? Or just the number of innings? Maybe they were way over the limit. Also they need these guys for a full season. Young pitchers are usually allowed to increase like 30 innings a year. They are probably pacing them

Well unfortunately the box scores for teams below AAA ball dont offer any pitch count, just batters faced and groudouts-flyouts. However during Clippard's outing, he through 84 pitches and did not pitch into the 6th inning.

Offline PANatsFan

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Well unfortunately the box scores for teams below AAA ball dont offer any pitch count, just batters faced and groudouts-flyouts. However during Clippard's outing, he through 84 pitches and did not pitch into the 6th inning.

Ok 84 is a short outing

Offline tomterp

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I thought perhaps they are trying to give innings to relievers as well, for developmental reasons no different than the starters get. 

Offline blue911

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I thought perhaps they are trying to give innings to relievers as well, for developmental reasons no different than the starters get. 

Look at the saves for the Columbus team.

Offline ronnynat

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Maybe we should bring in some of the trainers, coaches, and managers from Japan. They don't seem to have a problem w/ keeping guys in once they hit that "scary" 100 pitch point. And they don't seem to have a problem w/ injuries over there either.

Seriously, this crap is starting to piss me off. PUT IN RELIEVERS WHEN YOUR STARTERS ACTUALLY NEED RELIEF! If that doesn't happen, doesn't that mean your starters are pitching well?! And that doesn't happen every outing, so the worry that your relievers aren't getting enough innings is just bullcrap. Relievers WILL get their opportunities to pitch.

Offline spidernat

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The "quality start" stat is partly to blame, I think. It has lowered expectations by awarding pitchers for mediocre performances.

Offline daveb32

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It's up and down the Minors and the Majors. Manny pulling Hill last night is a prime example of the Nationals organization babying their starters. And on top of that he pulls him for a reliever who has the most appearances in all of Major League Baseball. Our rotations of the future are not going to be able to pitch deep into ballgames, even if they are pitching well, if they do not become accustomed to it when they are young.

Offline KnorrForYourMoney

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The "quality start" stat is partly to blame, I think. It has lowered expectations by awarding pitchers for mediocre performances.
Alright Don Sutton :rofl:

I think it has a lot to do with what Tomterp said - starting pitchers lack durability nowadays because people have been putting more stock into developing their relief pitchers, which has led them to give more time to them and less to the starters.  The starters don't have the necessary durability to thrive in the majors as a result.  Just a theory.

Offline BBQ

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Their job is to develop players with-out any injuries. A stud who can go only 6 innings is better than someone that can go the whole game but then gets hurt for 2-4 weeks.

Offline ronnynat

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Their job is to develop players with-out any injuries. A stud who can go only 6 innings is better than someone that can go the whole game but then gets hurt for 2-4 weeks.

There are signs that a pitcher is getting weaker as a game goes along. If he's hurt, their are signs of that, too. If none of those signs are showing and he's still pitching well, there is no reason to take him out. It is fear, and that is ridiculous, IMO. It happens at all levels now.

Offline tomterp

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There are signs that a pitcher is getting weaker as a game goes along.

Generally, control goes long before velocity.

Offline ronnynat

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Generally, control goes long before velocity.

Absolutely. Not sure if you were disagreeing there, but that's still a sign that they're getting weaker, too. The point is, it's better to go by a pitcher's performance than by some made up pitch count system.

Offline tomterp

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Absolutely. Not sure if you were disagreeing there, but that's still a sign that they're getting weaker, too. The point is, it's better to go by a pitcher's performance than by some made up pitch count system.

I was not disagreeing at all, just throwing out an observation.  BP did a study of velocity vs. # of pitches, and concluded that velocity drop was very slight as a pitcher tired, but that control suffered significantly. 

Offline PANatsFan

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I was not disagreeing at all, just throwing out an observation.  BP did a study of velocity vs. # of pitches, and concluded that velocity drop was very slight as a pitcher tired, but that control suffered significantly. 


Seems like mental fatigue might set in first

Offline blue911

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Seems like mental fatigue might set in first

They have to remember four numbers. Geez how taxing is that?