Author Topic: Is Harper on Pace For HOF  (Read 1315 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

  • Posts: 2825
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #75: March 08, 2019, 10:58:19 AM »
If Harold Barnes can make the HOF anyone can.

 :hysterical:

Online UMDNats

  • Posts: 15804
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #76: March 08, 2019, 11:03:29 AM »
I mean, Jack Morris got in because baseball writers circlejerked for years about one playoff performance. The bar is pretty damn low.

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 14274
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #77: March 08, 2019, 11:04:34 AM »
:hysterical:
See I don’t even know how to spell his name and he made it.

Offline NJ Ave

  • Posts: 3389
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #78: March 08, 2019, 11:06:39 AM »
Lol. From 1960 to 1996 (when Cal Ripken stopped playing SS) here's the power stats for SSs. Ripken hit 353 HRs. No other SS hit 200.

Online Senatorswin

  • Posts: 275
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #79: March 09, 2019, 10:14:46 AM »
So my point has been not that Cal shouldn't be in the HOF but when you drill past the hype often a different story is told. Many judge a HOFer on was he the best player of his era. Lets narrow that to was Cal the best player on his own team year-by-year during his career. In 3 of the 20 he was. During the other 17 years here's who was better. Eddie, Larry Sheets, Mickey Tettleton, Mike Devereaux, Chris Hoiles, Rafael, Brady, Albert Belle, Charles Johnson, Melvin Mora.
So not that he shouldn't be in the HOF but I'm not that impressed.

As far as other players mentioned in this post:

Ozzie Smith - Hell no. Poster boy for hype.
Whitey Ford - Lost 2 years to military service. Only 13 years of pitching. Hell yes.
Harold Baines - No. Wasn't even much hype. Must have a cousin who counted the votes.
Jack Morris - No, Poster boy for a high profile playoff performance overreaction.
One not mentioned - Sandy Koufax - Only 6 years of great pitching but he was awesome for those years. Didn't have medical procedures they have now to save a career. I don't know.

Finally. An example from the past of what I was saying of Harper and hype. In 1977 the Yankees signed Reggie Jackson to what was then the largest contract ever. Jackson was a great home run hitter and RBI man so I'm not saying he wasn't great or doesn't deserve HOF. But his average up to that point was .256. In a book called " The Bronx is Burning" at the time of that signing Jim Palmer is quoted as saying " He's an average player, not even a real good player". Dock Ellis is quoted as saying " He's an average player who has a lot of power". What they were saying is look past the Hype. I don't agree in Reggie's case but a closer look at Harper is warranted.

Online Senatorswin

  • Posts: 275
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #80: March 09, 2019, 10:16:21 AM »
When I say those other players were better than Cal only for that one season. Except for a couple certainly not for their careers.

Online HalfSmokes

  • Posts: 20042
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #81: March 09, 2019, 10:57:26 AM »
It’s almost like you have no clue that different offensive production is elite at different positions

Online Senatorswin

  • Posts: 275
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #82: March 09, 2019, 11:23:56 AM »
If Cal had stayed at third his whole with the same numbers career would he be in the HOF?

Online bluestreak

  • Posts: 7551
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #83: March 09, 2019, 11:51:58 AM »
If Cal had stayed at third his whole with the same numbers career would he be in the HOF?

Yes. Even with the dearth of third baseman in the Hall. Look at his numbers compared to Brooks Robinson or Ron Santo who are are in HOF. He has 3000 hits.
The guy won league MVP twice.

You throw out that he wasn’t the best guy on his team many years. The argument for Ripken is that he is arguably the best shortstop to ever play the baseball. The only others in the conversation are a drug cheat and a guy who finished playing in 1917.

Why would it even be a question that the best guy to play the position isn’t inner circle hall of famer?

As far as Harper is concerned, even if he continues at current rate he likely won’t have Ripken’s numbers AND he’ll have been a RF/DH. It’s a completely different scenario.

No one was really arguing for Baines or Morris’ induction. They are fringe cases at best. Ripken isn’t even close to fringe.

I think you’re wrong about Ozzie Smith though. He was widely regarded as the best defensive SS ever by people that played with him and watched him. You don’t seem like a guy that is into advanced analytics. So how else do you measure defense other than the contemporary judgments of the guy?

Or do you actually think that defense isn’t important and performing it at a high level is noteworthy?


Online Senatorswin

  • Posts: 275
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #84: March 09, 2019, 01:47:11 PM »
Yes. Even with the dearth of third baseman in the Hall. Look at his numbers compared to Brooks Robinson or Ron Santo who are are in HOF. He has 3000 hits.
The guy won league MVP twice.

You throw out that he wasn’t the best guy on his team many years. The argument for Ripken is that he is arguably the best shortstop to ever play the baseball. The only others in the conversation are a drug cheat and a guy who finished playing in 1917.

Why would it even be a question that the best guy to play the position isn’t inner circle hall of famer?

As far as Harper is concerned, even if he continues at current rate he likely won’t have Ripken’s numbers AND he’ll have been a RF/DH. It’s a completely different scenario.

No one was really arguing for Baines or Morris’ induction. They are fringe cases at best. Ripken isn’t even close to fringe.

I think you’re wrong about Ozzie Smith though. He was widely regarded as the best defensive SS ever by people that played with him and watched him. You don’t seem like a guy that is into advanced analytics. So how else do you measure defense other than the contemporary judgments of the guy?

Or do you actually think that defense isn’t important and performing it at a high level is noteworthy?

Not saying Ripken shouldn't be in the HOF just that he was a good player for 20 years and therefore his accumulated numbers were good but his year-to-year stats don't blow my skirt up.  I guess I've said it enough times and don't need to any more.

As far as Baines and Morris the people who mentioned them were saying they were not HOF worthy which I agree.

As far as Ozzie he made the spectacular play but you're right that I look more towards conventual numbers. As I showed earlier his assists and fielding percentage didn't compare so favorably with even Ripken. I think he's the poster boy for hype over substance.

As far as Harper I believe if he continues at his current pace he will get into the HOF but his year-by-year averages are not what I'd want in a HOFer. Phillips, a former GM, doesn't even think he's one of the best in the game today.

As far as fielding counting if anybody says Brooks Robinson shouldn't be in the HOF that's fighting words. He's the best fielding third baseman I've ever seen. Which brings up Manny Machado. If he plays many years at third he might qualify for the HOF even if he finishes with pedestrian numbers.

Online Senatorswin

  • Posts: 275
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #85: March 09, 2019, 01:52:09 PM »
To me the most interesting question when it comes to who should be in the HOF is Sandy Koufax. He played 12 seasons. He was only good 6 of those seasons. But those 6 years he was beyond great. If they had better medical procedures back then maybe they could have fixed him. I don't know. Any opinions?

Offline Natsinpwc

  • Posts: 14274
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #86: March 09, 2019, 01:57:05 PM »
To me the most interesting question when it comes to who should be in the HOF is Sandy Koufax. He played 12 seasons. He was only good 6 of those seasons. But those 6 years he was beyond great. If they had better medical procedures back then maybe they could have fixed him. I don't know. Any opinions?
I think someone that dominant for a period of time should be in.

Online HalfSmokes

  • Posts: 20042
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #87: March 09, 2019, 02:10:14 PM »
I think someone that dominant for a period of time should be in.

Johan Santana is the edge case of that to me- best by far for a period, but fell off a cliff

Online bluestreak

  • Posts: 7551
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #88: March 09, 2019, 03:14:16 PM »
To me the most interesting question when it comes to who should be in the HOF is Sandy Koufax. He played 12 seasons. He was only good 6 of those seasons. But those 6 years he was beyond great. If they had better medical procedures back then maybe they could have fixed him. I don't know. Any opinions?

He was maybe the best player in baseball for 6 years. That deserves inclusion. I think there are a couple of ways to get in, be great or the best at your position for a period of time or be an well above average player for a long time. 

Small Hall people want players who were great for a long time. I’m a bigger hall person.

Offline Elvir Ovcina

  • Posts: 2825
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #89: March 09, 2019, 04:00:36 PM »

As far as fielding counting if anybody says Brooks Robinson shouldn't be in the HOF that's fighting words. He's the best fielding third baseman I've ever seen. Which brings up Manny Machado. If he plays many years at third he might qualify for the HOF even if he finishes with pedestrian numbers.

Which is rather amusing considering that Machado's career averages so far (using your metrics) are .282, 25 HR, 73 RBI.   Basically Ripken, in other words.  So if Machado plays 3B brilliantly, he's a possible HoFer and if he plays SS decently he's...well, what?

Online Senatorswin

  • Posts: 275
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #90: March 09, 2019, 08:22:34 PM »
Which is rather amusing considering that Machado's career averages so far (using your metrics) are .282, 25 HR, 73 RBI.   Basically Ripken, in other words.  So if Machado plays 3B brilliantly, he's a possible HoFer and if he plays SS decently he's...well, what?

At shortstop he's average. His hitting numbers have to be above average or he has to play a long time to accumulate numbers like Cal. At third he's gold glove level. Over time he might be as good as Brooks which is saying a lot. That kind of defense can get you in if your hitting is good but not great.

Online Slateman

  • Posts: 48991
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #91: March 10, 2019, 10:17:49 AM »
I have nothing against Ripkin, I enjoyed watching him play. But he averaged .276, with 21 home runs and 84 RBI per year. What are the reasons he's in the HOF?

He did it at shortstop

Offline Nick the Pig

  • Posts: 702
Re: Is Harper on Pace For HOF
« Reply #92: March 10, 2019, 06:55:17 PM »
Before Ripkin, other than Honus Wagner, there weren't a lot of shortstops who gave you offense.  Ripken redefined the position.

This.